The fascist regime that the west installed in Ukraine in a violent coup that overthrew the democratically elected government is sacrificing the people of Ukraine in a proxy war between NATO and Russia.
Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!
Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore
I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population. And especially what source/numbers you are using for Ukraine’s current total population because the total from your link or the estimates I’ve found are nowhere near any of the even lower end estimates I’ve seen.
You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.
Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!
LMFAO Stoltenberg literally admitted this already. Update your talking points. 😂
Then lastly on Sweden. First of all, it is historic that now Finland is member of the Alliance. And we have to remember the background. The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.
The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.
So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.
I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population.
Moving them goalposts when faced with the facts eh.
You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.
I’m not upset about anything, I just think you’re an artless troll.
“NATO didn’t sign our treaty so we just had to attack” is not a very convincing justification for a damn invasion at all. Russia chose to attack instead of dealing with an unfriendly government. Which is fucked up.
I wonder if people who think NATO expansion was a fine justification would be fine with the US invading countries to prevent them from joining military alliances they oppose. I know I wouldn’t be.
Moving them goalposts when faced with the facts eh.
You literally wrote this: “Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. And I asked source for your claims.
I just want to see your source for this claim. I’m happy with the source for the other claim.
You’re arguing with a person driven by anti-Western/NATO viewpoints; you’ll never get a fair response. Even if they find something to back up their claims, it’ll be a biased source. Expect sputnik news or some other direct Russian propaganda source. Just gotta get used to that on Lemmy.
Edit: Removed the “t” word as apparently that’s a slur now.
Even if they find something to back up their claims, it’ll be a biased source.
There is literally no such thing as an unbiased source, and the core bias of the corporate media is the bias of the capitalist class.
The whole concept of the “left” or ”right“ “bias” being inversely correlated with factualness is garbage. These kinds of graphs, which try to convince us that centrism equals factualness, are garbage:
Sometimes I’m just curious where people got their numbers from. This time both for because the first argument seems unlikely and second I wanted to know if they count the occupied areas and those forcibly moved for example.
I completely understand, but remember that for some people this is just a matter of ideology. Any response will be filled with so many bullshit claims that you’ll have to spend an hour digging through random articles, YouTube videos, and googling drive-by statements in order to refute them.
They argue by shooting dozens of points at you hoping that you’ll just say “ah shit, this person is quoting X, Y, and Z so they must be correct”, knowing that no reasonable person would spend the time required to refute each and every BS statement they’ve made. (gish galloping, for the uninitiated)
I did this once before, and it took much longer than expected to refute each bullshit source. When dealing with these people you either don’t engage, or enjoy them feasting on your free time.
“NATO didn’t sign our treaty so we just had to attack"
Weird way to say NATO has been expanding towards Russia since the 90s.
I wonder if people who think NATO expansion was a fine justification would be fine with the US invading countries to prevent them from joining military alliances they oppose. I know I wouldn’t be.
If you think US would be fine with countries that border it joining an alliance with Russia you’re even more ignorant than I thought. Go read up on the Cuban missile crisis.
I just want to see your source for this claim. I’m happy with the source for the other claim.
I literally provided you with a source. Maybe work on that reading comprehension of yours?
Weird way to say NATO has been expanding towards Russia since the 90s.
Governments aligning themselves differently to how you’d like is no justification for invading them and killing their people.
Would you be fine with the reverse, USA or Germany or someone invading if those countries had been joining CSTO for example? Would a military alliance aligned away from those countries be a justification enough for attacking them and killing their people? I wouldn’t think so.
If you think US would be fine with countries that border it joining an alliance with Russia you’re even more ignorant than I thought. Go read up on the Cuban missile crisis.
And tell me, are you fine with the US behaviour there? And I didn’t say they’d be fine with it, I said I wouldn’t be fine with them doing it.
I literally provided you with a source. Maybe work on that reading comprehension of yours?
Your source doesn’t prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. If anything, based on all estimates of current Ukrainian population I could find compared to the refugee numbers you provided, it argues against that point.
What number are you using for Ukraine’s current total population?
Governments aligning themselves differently to how you’d like is no justification for invading them and killing their people.
Interesting way to describe the west overthrowing a democratically elected government in a violent coup.
Would you be fine with the reverse, USA or Germany or someone invading if those countries had been joining CSTO for example?
This isn’t a hypothetical, we already know what the west does.
And tell me, are you fine with the US behaviour there? And I didn’t say they’d be fine with it, I said I wouldn’t be fine with them doing it.
Not being an utter imbecile, I understand that this would be the only possible outcome. Provoking such an outcome is either idiotic or intentionally malicious.
Your source doesn’t prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”.
Go look up the population of Ukraine before and after the war. If you really can’t figure out how google works then come back and I’ll help you.
This isn’t a hypothetical, we already know what the west does.
And how do you feel about that, do you think it is proper justification?
Not being an utter imbecile, I understand that this would be the only possible outcome. Provoking such an outcome is either idiotic or intentionally malicious.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
Go look up the population of Ukraine before and after the war. If you really can’t figure out how google works then come back and I’ll help you.
You provided the figures for how many refugees there are and have claimed that proves that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. But the total refugees from that source are nowhere near the estimates for current Ukrainian population, even on low end. So I’m not sure how that proves your point. Maybe you’ve misunderstood something but I have been googling this and the numbers I’ve found go against what you are saying.
So yes, please help me. It’s kinda what I’ve been asking since the start but you’ve been pretty standoffish about it.
And how do you feel about that, do you think it is proper justification?
I think that’s how the world works, and feels have nothing to do with it. The reality is that no great power will allow another great power to surround it with its proxies. So, either you think that there should be constant war between great powers, or you accept boundaries.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
See above.
So yes, please help me. It’s kinda what I’ve been asking since the start but you’ve been pretty standoffish about it.
Let me rephrase that, most fighting age males have fled Ukraine at this point
I think that’s how the world works, and feels have nothing to do with it. The reality is that no great power will allow another great power to surround it with its proxies. So, either you think that there should be constant war between great powers, or you accept boundaries.
And do you feel like that is proper justification for invading and attacking countries, killing people?
But that shows that the current population is ≈37,9 million, pre-escalation (2021) ≈43,5 million, pre-war ≈45,1 million. (The total ever in 1992, ≈51,8 million.) Can you explain to me how your numbers prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”?
E: Seems you’ve edited the comment
Let me rephrase that, most fighting age males have fled Ukraine at this point
Talk about moving the goalposts, eh. But anyway we can probably agree that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore” isn’t true then?
Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!
I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population. And especially what source/numbers you are using for Ukraine’s current total population because the total from your link or the estimates I’ve found are nowhere near any of the even lower end estimates I’ve seen.
You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.
LMFAO Stoltenberg literally admitted this already. Update your talking points. 😂
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm
Moving them goalposts when faced with the facts eh.
I’m not upset about anything, I just think you’re an artless troll.
“NATO didn’t sign our treaty so we just had to attack” is not a very convincing justification for a damn invasion at all. Russia chose to attack instead of dealing with an unfriendly government. Which is fucked up.
I wonder if people who think NATO expansion was a fine justification would be fine with the US invading countries to prevent them from joining military alliances they oppose. I know I wouldn’t be.
You literally wrote this: “Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. And I asked source for your claims.
I just want to see your source for this claim. I’m happy with the source for the other claim.
You’re arguing with a person driven by anti-Western/NATO viewpoints; you’ll never get a fair response. Even if they find something to back up their claims, it’ll be a biased source. Expect sputnik news or some other direct Russian propaganda source. Just gotta get used to that on Lemmy.
Edit: Removed the “t” word as apparently that’s a slur now.
There is literally no such thing as an unbiased source, and the core bias of the corporate media is the bias of the capitalist class.
The whole concept of the “left” or ”right“ “bias” being inversely correlated with factualness is garbage. These kinds of graphs, which try to convince us that centrism equals factualness, are garbage:
The workings of corporate media were explained about forty years ago in Inventing Reality and Manufacturing Consent.
A five minute introduction: Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
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Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
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I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Sometimes I’m just curious where people got their numbers from. This time both for because the first argument seems unlikely and second I wanted to know if they count the occupied areas and those forcibly moved for example.
I completely understand, but remember that for some people this is just a matter of ideology. Any response will be filled with so many bullshit claims that you’ll have to spend an hour digging through random articles, YouTube videos, and googling drive-by statements in order to refute them.
They argue by shooting dozens of points at you hoping that you’ll just say “ah shit, this person is quoting X, Y, and Z so they must be correct”, knowing that no reasonable person would spend the time required to refute each and every BS statement they’ve made. (gish galloping, for the uninitiated)
I did this once before, and it took much longer than expected to refute each bullshit source. When dealing with these people you either don’t engage, or enjoy them feasting on your free time.
deleted by creator
You’re responding to the wrong person, chief.
Damn, sorry. Don’t know how I managed that.
No worries.
Weird way to say NATO has been expanding towards Russia since the 90s.
If you think US would be fine with countries that border it joining an alliance with Russia you’re even more ignorant than I thought. Go read up on the Cuban missile crisis.
I literally provided you with a source. Maybe work on that reading comprehension of yours?
Governments aligning themselves differently to how you’d like is no justification for invading them and killing their people.
Would you be fine with the reverse, USA or Germany or someone invading if those countries had been joining CSTO for example? Would a military alliance aligned away from those countries be a justification enough for attacking them and killing their people? I wouldn’t think so.
And tell me, are you fine with the US behaviour there? And I didn’t say they’d be fine with it, I said I wouldn’t be fine with them doing it.
Your source doesn’t prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. If anything, based on all estimates of current Ukrainian population I could find compared to the refugee numbers you provided, it argues against that point.
What number are you using for Ukraine’s current total population?
Interesting way to describe the west overthrowing a democratically elected government in a violent coup.
This isn’t a hypothetical, we already know what the west does.
Not being an utter imbecile, I understand that this would be the only possible outcome. Provoking such an outcome is either idiotic or intentionally malicious.
Go look up the population of Ukraine before and after the war. If you really can’t figure out how google works then come back and I’ll help you.
And how do you feel about that, do you think it is proper justification?
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
You provided the figures for how many refugees there are and have claimed that proves that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. But the total refugees from that source are nowhere near the estimates for current Ukrainian population, even on low end. So I’m not sure how that proves your point. Maybe you’ve misunderstood something but I have been googling this and the numbers I’ve found go against what you are saying.
So yes, please help me. It’s kinda what I’ve been asking since the start but you’ve been pretty standoffish about it.
The person you’re arguing with is a terminally online tankie, there’s no reasoning with them
I know, I’m just genuinely curious how their reasoning works here.
E: They “rephrased” (lol) it into a different argument. Disappointed.
I think that’s how the world works, and feels have nothing to do with it. The reality is that no great power will allow another great power to surround it with its proxies. So, either you think that there should be constant war between great powers, or you accept boundaries.
See above.
Let me rephrase that, most fighting age males have fled Ukraine at this point
Those who remain are not interested in fighting either as even western media admits now https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/15/world/europe/ukraine-military-recruitment.html
And do you feel like that is proper justification for invading and attacking countries, killing people?
But that shows that the current population is ≈37,9 million, pre-escalation (2021) ≈43,5 million, pre-war ≈45,1 million. (The total ever in 1992, ≈51,8 million.) Can you explain to me how your numbers prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”?
E: Seems you’ve edited the comment
Talk about moving the goalposts, eh. But anyway we can probably agree that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore” isn’t true then?