Hey folks

I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.

I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.

Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:

  • Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
  • Use arguments rather than calling people names
  • Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual

With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.

On defederation in general

First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.

I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.

Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.

Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.

Regarding hexbear

Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.

The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.

My own experience with hexbear

I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.

Background

My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).

I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.

Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.

Hexbear user response

Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:

  • Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
  • Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
  • Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier

I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.

Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.

Hexbear admin response

After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:

  1. They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
  2. They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
  3. They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways

Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.

At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.

I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don’t have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.

Where thing stand right now

I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.

Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.

Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.

  • 👁️🫦👁️
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    1 year ago

    From what I’ve seen of hexbear users in the wild, we wouldn’t lose much by defederating. Their shitposting and general antagonism to anyone right of Stalin adds nothing to instances beyond their own

    • pythonoob@programming.dev
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      1 year ago

      That’s my main concern as well. I’ve asked a couple basic questions about their terminology and that is usually answered mostly straight, but with vocab that is so leftist and so foreign I don’t even understand it. And I think that’s the heart of the problem really. They have their own culture and own language over there and they come over here using it and antagonizing people who respond speaking essentially a different language. They claim to want to spread leftism but what I mostly see is them harassing people that were just doing their own thing before all this.

      I’m fine with interacting with people of different ideologies and cultures, but I feel like the hexbears mostly just want to harass us “tankies”.

      • MolotovHalfEmpty [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        A lot of Hexbear users are well versed in political theory and philosophy and to some degree the instance serve as a big reading group (as well as fun, hobbies, and shitposting) so I can definitely see how that could be a bit intimidating to stumble into. But in general people are passionate about sharing information, books, articles etc so if you’re unsure of anything just ask for an explanation and you’ll find plenty of people eager to help.

      • socsa@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        The reality is that they aren’t even good leftists either. They are constantly saying shit which would get you laughed out of any freshman polisci course. They are low-information, reactionary campists, and the internet deserves a better class of socialist.

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        but I feel like the hexbears mostly just want to harass us “tankies”.

        Huh? Do you mean “liberals”? Hexbears are the ones liberals and leftcoms call “tankies”

        • pythonoob@programming.dev
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          1 year ago

          From what I can tell, which so far is decidedly little, everyone is calling everyone tankies. Maybe I’m wrong but that just goes back to my first point of speaking a different language.

          I don’t even really consider myself fully liberal, more progressive centrist. You calling all of us liberals is jarring tbh.

          • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            If you’re a centrist in the west, you are a liberal in the political philosophy sense (though not in American slang). Liberals are in the tradition of people like Locke, which is the entire anglophone mainstream.

            It’s gotta be tough following inconsistent definitions as a non-native speaker, but “tankie” is a pejorative used to refer to people who support socialist states (and, inexplicably, people call Russian sympathizers tankies despite Russia not being socialist).

      • Historical_General
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        1 year ago

        I hate those people who bleat about people being ‘tankies’ too. They’re everywhere and seem to be brigading and provoking the hexbear people for some reason.

      • Historical_General
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        1 year ago

        Are you an actual python noob? I’ve literally started reading a few chapters of Automate the Boring Stuff, and I’ve got it all so far, but it’s slow going. Any tips?

        • pythonoob@programming.dev
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          1 year ago

          I am a python noob lol. I’ve been going through 100 days of code with Dr. Yu on udemy. The only advice I can give is keep it up. Try to code everyday, don’t get discouraged if you don’t understand something right away.

          Also don’t burn yourself out by taking on too much at once. It’s better to do a little and keep up the momentum than to do a lot and take a 3 week break, do a lot again, another break… Etc.

      • oregoncom [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        MODS MODS MODS A BRIGADER LOOK HE’S FROM PROGRAMMING.DEV

        If you hate tankies so much then I have news for you. Look at the main lemmy dev’s github lmao.

          • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            You’re coming into a thread after it has 1000+ comments, which itself is subsequent to a lot of informal discussion. There’s context here.

            Part of that context is repeated accusations of Hexbear users brigading. The concept of brigading has its own issues, but to whatever degree it’s a real problem, users from other instances dropping in because a thread pops up in their feed (as you presumably did) is not brigading. Users from many instances have said they aren’t always sure where they are in every thread post-federation, and Hexbear users have said that, too.

            • pythonoob@programming.dev
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              1 year ago

              I haven’t said a thing about brigading, so I’m not sure why that’s relevant to me in particular. And I am one user from programming dev, a pretty neutral instance. That’s hardly brigading.

                • pythonoob@programming.dev
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                  1 year ago

                  Yeah there does seem to be a lot of various in individual user opinion, which I think is important to take into account with things like defederation. My earlier comment was based on reading through some of the comments on hexbear’s new posting guidelines thread. So I admit, hardly all encompassing.

                  • oregoncom [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    1 year ago

                    They claim to want to spread leftism but what I mostly see is them harassing people that were just doing their own thing before all this.

                    Is this civil? Is this not antagonistic?

                • hypelightfly@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  You can try to shift the blame all you want but your admins aren’t doing anything about it despite it being reported.

              • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                You’re right, it wasn’t relevant to you in particular. You got that comment because of the context surrounding this thread. Say you run a book club or game group and lots of people are chronically late, annoying you. One day a new member shows up a little late with a legit excuse but you fire off a snide comment to them in your frustration at the overall situation. They didn’t deserve that, you were a little quick on the trigger, but can you see how the larger context affects what was said?

                I also agree that you aren’t brigading. The Hexbear users here came to this thread the same way you did, and they aren’t brigading, either.

                • pythonoob@programming.dev
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                  1 year ago

                  Makes sense. I also don’t think hexbear’s are brigading. It just seems like that to people who are used to seeing such an influx of posts from one instance.

            • hypelightfly@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              The majority of those comments all come from one instance and mostly are derailing the thread and any attempt at discussion. Can you guess which one?

    • socsa@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Exactly. I have seen no evidence that they have any motivation beyond trolling, and if you look at their instance, it is filled with threads about “dunking on libs” and whatnot. Obviously they are just going to tell you whatever it takes to troll another day, because that’s what they do. But if you look broadly at how they participate, it’s obvious that when they say “exposure to differing opinions,” they mean being aggressive, condescending trolls.

    • nxdefiant@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      The U.S. government puts out travel advisories for countries, informing its citizens about the relative safety of those places.

      For the really bad ones, there are dire warnings about how likely death is.

      There are probably many places people shouldn’t visit on the fediverse, and I think what’s missing is a way of warning people that they might be stumbling into one of those places. If instances could issue “advisories” to let people know that they’re about to visit a hive of shit posters and putlerbots, and flagging accounts as belonging to such hives, it would go a long way toward solving the problem.

      I say this because defederation is tantamount to a travel ban, and that’s a big step.

      • oregoncom [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        hive of shit posters and putlerbots

        wow so civil, so refined. and your last comment was on our instance too. 0 self awareness. Does watching bad scifi melt your brain or something?

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        The U.S. government puts out travel advisories for countries, informing its citizens about the relative safety of those places.

        For the really bad ones, there are dire warnings about how likely death is.

        Let’s be fair, some of them are just politically motivated. The US government is not the most reliable source on such information.

        Anyway, let me know when Hexbear kills someone. What would that even be in this analogy? Making them delete their account?

        • MolotovHalfEmpty [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          If Hexbear kills anyone it’ll be our first poster to die of dehydration whilst posting for 72hrs uninterrupted. But we’ll probably get of a new thesis on posadism out of it.