• paholg
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    1 year ago

    Your contention is that Stalin committed no genocide? What do you call it, sparkling ethnic cleansing?

    • 🏳️‍⚧️ 新星 [she/they]@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      Do you call the Dust Bowl and Great Depression a genocide? Words have meaning.

      You love to present overdramatic accusations when a famine occurs in a socialist country, and there’s usually only one big one.

      Edit: If you’re talking about something else, please elaborate as to your specific allegation. I asked you for a source earlier and you didn’t respond.

      Edit 2: I stand corrected; I conflated you with a different user, but I’d still appreciate your source. Unfortunately, due to the lateness of this edit, the instance admins have already banned you, so I probably won’t find this out.

      • paholg
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        1 year ago

        You didn’t ask me for shit earlier. This is my first comment here.

        The Dust Bowl and Great Depression is a thing that happened. What occurred in Stalin’s reign is a pattern, that included famines. Were the famines specifically engineered to kill off specific groups? I don’t know. But when you take a holistic view, and look at executions, gulag assignments, forced resettlement, deportations, and, yes, famines, there was very clearly a genocide under Stalin.

        Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions. I don’t know if they were all with intent, but many definitely were.

        I don’t understand how anyone can defend Stalin. I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.

        • CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.

          By trying to paint the Soviet Union as genocidal, you are denying the Holocaust. Simple as.

        • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions.

          And the dust bowl was the direct result of the US governments policies and actions, so why is only one of them “a thing that happened,” you raging hypocrite?

          • paholg
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            1 year ago

            Are you capable of reading and processing information? Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe. Nevermind that it’s thousands vs millions of people. Did you notice where I talked about the larger pattern in the USSR? There wasn’t just one famine, but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.

            • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Are you capable of reading and processing information?

              Are you?

              Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe.

              Point to where I mentioned the Great Depression.

              Nevermind that it’s thousands vs millions of people.

              What methodology did you use to determine your numbers? And why would it matter anyway? Is it not a genocide if it’s bellow a certain amount?

              There wasn’t just one famine

              Yes there was, unless you’re counting the one caused by the Nazis flattening half of it, in which case I’m just going to write you off as a Nazi apologist.

              but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.

              Yes, that is indeed true of the USA, so why is the Dust Bowl “Just a thing that happened”, but the famine that happened in the same time period in the USSR not?

              • paholg
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                1 year ago

                I’m all ears, buddy. Paint me the picture of this dust bowl genocide. My mind is open. Convince me.

                  • paholg
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                    1 year ago

                    Let’s see. 34 countries and the EU consider the Holodomor (check your spelling btw) a genocide.

                    I can find… well, you, and nothing else claiming the dust bowl is a genocide.

        • 🏳️‍⚧️ 新星 [she/they]@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Prisoners in the United States jumped from 120,284 in 1923 to 210,418 in 1933. (Source (p. 210))

          Executions increased to 197, the highest number in US history, in 1935. (Source)

          The U.S. forcibly deported one million of its own citizens to Mexico in the 1930s. Source

          Since you’re probably using an intentionally ridiculous US estimate, I’ll use an intentionally ridiculous Russian estimate and say that seven million people died from the Great Depression. This Russian estimate uses the same intentionally ridiculous methodology of the U.S. one.

          Put together, why isn’t this enough to declare that a genocide happened in the U.S.?

          • paholg
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            1 year ago

            Nice whataboutism. But fuck it, I’ll bite. A genocide has absolutely happened in the US, funny that you didn’t hit on it.

            Let’s play a game. I’m going to call it, “can we agree on some basic facts?”

            Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens. True or false?

            • 🏳️‍⚧️ 新星 [she/they]@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              funny that you didn’t hit on it.

              Apologies for the confusing wording above. That’s because I was comparing two similar events to see if you would call it a genocide when the U.S. did it. If you did, I’d question your definition of genocide, but at least accept you’re applying it consistently.

              I absolutely agree with you on that basic fact — the US has engaged in countless successful genocides against indigenous peoples.

              Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens.

              False.

              First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.

              @ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml, would you mind holding this lib up to scrutiny since the one on Hexbear didn’t respond?

              • paholg
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                1 year ago

                First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.

                Fair, but this is just kind of a thing we do with language.

                If we can’t agree that millions of people in the USSR were killed, sent to gulags, and died of famine during Stalin’s leadership, then I’m not sure there’s anything worth discussing.

                Similarly, the article you linked about 7 million US deaths in the great depression doesn’t even take itself seriously. It’s just trying to discredit counts for deaths in the Holodomor. I suspect you don’t think that many people died as a result of the great depression, and, if you’re not going to argue in good faith, then again I believe we are at an impasse.

                Finally, there is no need for name-calling. While I do not consider “lib” nearly as much an insult as you likely intend it, I would still not categorize myself as such.

                • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  If we can’t agree that millions of people in the USSR were killed, sent to gulags, and died of famine during Stalin’s leadership

                  Can we agree that millions of people in the USA were killed, sent to gulags, and died of famine during FDR’s leadership?

                  I suspect you don’t think that many people died as a result of the great depression

                  And do you think that people died during the Holodomor?

                • 🏳️‍⚧️ 新星 [she/they]@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  if you’re not going to argue in good faith, then again I believe we are at an impasse.

                  Unfortunately, I’m suspecting that whatever your sources are similarly aren’t arguing in good faith, but since you won’t provide them, I can’t know for sure.

                  While I do not consider “lib” nearly as much an insult as you likely intend it, I would still not categorize myself as such.

                  I don’t intend it as an insult, but if you’re actually a socialist, I apologize. I hope though if you were, that you might consider that the US has a clear bias against socialism, so it’s pretty hard to consider it a trustworthy source on this matter at face value. There’s not a neutral party, but we should at least consider what the other side is saying instead of just blindly accepting the US government narrative.

    • figaro@lemdro.id
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      1 year ago

      It’s crazy - we all actually tend to agree on most things. We all sort of agree that the US government has committed atrocities, that wealth redistribution is what we should be striving for, that billionaires suck, that universal healthcare is good, all that good shit.

      But they are stuck on the idea that their favorite governments can do no wrong.

      • 🏳️‍⚧️ 新星 [she/they]@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        “I agree that the U.S. is evil and has been the objective bad guy in every war it’s ever been in (and the US has almost never not been at war) but I believe the U.S. wholeheartedly in matters of foreign policy”

        Of course they can do wrong. We acknowledge legitimate criticisms, but we’re going to refute slander against socialist governments.

        • figaro@lemdro.id
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          1 year ago

          I trust international investigation and evidence uncovered by reputable journalists.

          If a country refuses to allow international investigators to do their job, that is a significant red flag.

        • paholg
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          1 year ago

          If you compartmentalize counties in war to “good guys” and “bad guys”, you’re really going to claim that the US was the bad guy in WW2?

          • 🏳️‍⚧️ 新星 [she/they]@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            I apologize for the bad terminology, but I’ll stick with it to answer your question. Even in WW2, the Soviets were the “good guys” and the US only intervened when it was obvious the Soviets would win to stop a communist Europe.

            • paholg
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              1 year ago

              Got it. In any war, communists are “good”, everyone else is “meh” or “bad”. It’s real telling that you’ll call the Soviets the “good guys” but not any other European nations.

              • 🏳️‍⚧️ 新星 [she/they]@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                If the U.S. really cared about stopping Nazis, shouldn’t they have joined the war back in 1939? You also can’t possibly defend the two nuclear bombs on Japan (who was already ready to surrender) was anything other than to intimidate the USSR.

                • paholg
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                  1 year ago

                  You’re jumping all over the place and it’s funny. Let’s go back to your earlier claim: “The US has been the bad guys in every war it’s been in”. Were the US the “bad guys” in WW2? Yes or no?

                  • 🏳️‍⚧️ 新星 [she/they]@lemmygrad.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    You’re jumping all over the place and it’s funny.

                    No, I was providing additional support to the claim that even in WW2, the US aren’t the good guys.

                    Were the US the “bad guys” in WW2? Yes or no?

                    Yes, I would call the country responsible for the Nazis (the Nazis were inspired by the U.S. and actually thought it went too far with the one-drop rule) and the only country to use two nuclear bombs on civilians on a country that was already ready to surrender the bad guys.

      • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Not really; we have no problem with actual, reasonable, criticism of AES nations, we just have no time for “100 MILLION DEAD! AUTHORITARIANISM! GENOCIDE! REDFASCISM!” nonsense.