I don’t doubt that RCV has flaws. But we know that FPTP has flaws. So the question then becomes, Is RCV or FPTP the better voting system? If RCV is a better voting system than it should be pushed for and supported because of that fact.
For example, If someone is so obsessed with making sure your comment is completely accurate and factual that they end up deleting and never posting the comment, then that comment will not help anyone. Or for another example, I shouldn’t wear a mask because it won’t fully protect me or others from coronavirus. Doing something even is if it is an imperfect improvement is better than doing nothing.
I believe an RCV system is better than FPTP and therefore support it. I also would support STAR for the same reason.
I am usually the one making the “perfect is the enemy of the good” argument, and you make excellent points in this case.
I will add some nuance to the enemy of the good argument, in that:
Doing something even is if it is an imperfect improvement is better than doing nothing.
does not factor in the potential harm of the imperfect thing. It’s a no-brainer with masks, because there is none. But it is worth taking a close look at whether the problems with IRV are less harmful than FPTP, and, more importantly, if implementing IRV prevents the institution of a better system (like potentially STAR). If there’s one opportunity to switch our voting method, and we go with a less effective one, would that prevent changing it again to an even better system?
I’ll give you an example: I’m not sure if this is still going on, but the Salvation Army was found to be rejecting LGBTQ people from shelters and support. Now, you can say “they still help a lot of people, so not supporting them harms those who do get support from the SA.” The perfect being the enemy of the good. But establishing a monolith of an organization like the Salvation Army as the go-to charity for the poor and/or homeless cuts the legs out from any charity that may support everyone, not just straight cis-gendered people.
In the same way, if IRV gets popular and cements itself as the alternative to FPTP, it could be that it prevents other forms like STAR from even being considered. It’s worth considering, particularly as FPTP alternative implementation is in its infancy, what alternatives are available.
Why not say you would support IRV or better, especially multi member districts and proportional results? Why put so much effort in trying to push against the facts about IRV? Frankly if IRV gets put in place and people are not aware of its strange chaotic behavior it will get repealed, which isn’t my conjecture its reality.
Why not say you would support IRV or better, especially multi member districts and proportional results?
I do and I did. See my last paragraph. Sure, I used different words than you did but I was trying to imply the same thing.
Why put so much effort in trying to push against the facts about IRV?
I did no such thing. Don’t strawman me by putting works in my mouth.
Frankly if IRV gets put in place and people are not aware of its strange chaotic behavior it will get repealed, which isn’t my conjecture its reality.
That is your conjecture, unless you give an example of that happening. I will grant you that it is conceivable that such a circumstance happen, but that doesn’t make it not a conjecture.
I guess my point is that it isn’t really helpful for us to argue about different voting systems when we largely agree that we need to move away from a FPTP system. It just serves to promote division. Unless we are actually doing the groundwork of pushing for different voting systems, arguing about the details of the different systems is just not needed.
Both Canada and the US had and repealed irv in multiple jurisdictions.
Your whole post is to tell everyone to chill on the criticism of IRV, its not a strawman its your actions.
I guess my point is that it isn’t really helpful for us to argue about different voting systems when we largely agree that we need to move away from a FPTP system. It just serves to promote division. Unless we are actually doing the groundwork of pushing for different voting systems, arguing about the details of the different systems is just not needed.
Right there, you just did it.
IRV is not a good enough solution to promote, imo. I don’t agree with you and you are actively hurting the adoption of a proportional system, the only election system that results in a meaningful number of parties. STV is fine, IRV is not.
I don’t doubt that RCV has flaws. But we know that FPTP has flaws. So the question then becomes, Is RCV or FPTP the better voting system? If RCV is a better voting system than it should be pushed for and supported because of that fact.
Perfect is the enemy of good. It is relevant in life and in politics.
For example, If someone is so obsessed with making sure your comment is completely accurate and factual that they end up deleting and never posting the comment, then that comment will not help anyone. Or for another example, I shouldn’t wear a mask because it won’t fully protect me or others from coronavirus. Doing something even is if it is an imperfect improvement is better than doing nothing.
I believe an RCV system is better than FPTP and therefore support it. I also would support STAR for the same reason.
I am usually the one making the “perfect is the enemy of the good” argument, and you make excellent points in this case.
I will add some nuance to the enemy of the good argument, in that:
does not factor in the potential harm of the imperfect thing. It’s a no-brainer with masks, because there is none. But it is worth taking a close look at whether the problems with IRV are less harmful than FPTP, and, more importantly, if implementing IRV prevents the institution of a better system (like potentially STAR). If there’s one opportunity to switch our voting method, and we go with a less effective one, would that prevent changing it again to an even better system?
I’ll give you an example: I’m not sure if this is still going on, but the Salvation Army was found to be rejecting LGBTQ people from shelters and support. Now, you can say “they still help a lot of people, so not supporting them harms those who do get support from the SA.” The perfect being the enemy of the good. But establishing a monolith of an organization like the Salvation Army as the go-to charity for the poor and/or homeless cuts the legs out from any charity that may support everyone, not just straight cis-gendered people.
In the same way, if IRV gets popular and cements itself as the alternative to FPTP, it could be that it prevents other forms like STAR from even being considered. It’s worth considering, particularly as FPTP alternative implementation is in its infancy, what alternatives are available.
Why not say you would support IRV or better, especially multi member districts and proportional results? Why put so much effort in trying to push against the facts about IRV? Frankly if IRV gets put in place and people are not aware of its strange chaotic behavior it will get repealed, which isn’t my conjecture its reality.
I do and I did. See my last paragraph. Sure, I used different words than you did but I was trying to imply the same thing.
I did no such thing. Don’t strawman me by putting works in my mouth.
That is your conjecture, unless you give an example of that happening. I will grant you that it is conceivable that such a circumstance happen, but that doesn’t make it not a conjecture.
I guess my point is that it isn’t really helpful for us to argue about different voting systems when we largely agree that we need to move away from a FPTP system. It just serves to promote division. Unless we are actually doing the groundwork of pushing for different voting systems, arguing about the details of the different systems is just not needed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_use_of_instant-runoff_voting?wprov=sfla1
Both Canada and the US had and repealed irv in multiple jurisdictions.
Your whole post is to tell everyone to chill on the criticism of IRV, its not a strawman its your actions.
Right there, you just did it.
IRV is not a good enough solution to promote, imo. I don’t agree with you and you are actively hurting the adoption of a proportional system, the only election system that results in a meaningful number of parties. STV is fine, IRV is not.
Kinda low to attack me and not the argument. That is otherwise known as an ad hominem.
It’s pretty clear your treating this as a pissing match and I have no interest in that.