Context

There have been a lot of posts and comments recently about Facebook entering the fediverse, and how different instances will handle it. Many people have asked me to commit to pre-emptively defederating from Threads before they even implement ActivityPub.

The lemm.ee federation policy states that it’s not a goal for lemm.ee to curate content for our users, but we will certainly defederate any server which aims to systematically break our rules. I want to point out here that Facebook makes essentially all of its money from advertising, and lemm.ee has a no advertising rule - basically, Facebook has a built-in financial incentive to break our rules. ActivityPub has no protections against advertising, so it’s likely we will end up having to eventually defederate from Threads just for this reason alone.

However, I would still like to get a feel for how many people in our instance are actually excited for potential federation with Threads. While personally I feel that any theoretical pros are by far outweighed by cons, I do want to use this opportunity to see how much of the community disagrees with me. I am not intending to run this instance as a democracy (sorry if anybody is disappointed by that), but I would still like to have a clear picture of user feedback for potentially major decisions such as this one. This is why I am asking every user who wants lemm.ee to federate with Facebook to please downvote this post.

Here are some reasons why I personally believe that Threads will have a negative effect on the fediverse

  • As mentioned above, Facebook is completely driven by ad revenue. There is nothing stopping them from sending out ads as posts/comments with artificially inflated scores, which would ensure that their ads end up on the “all” page of federated servers.
  • Threads already has more users than all Lemmy instances combined. Even if their algorithms don’t apply to the rest of the fediverse directly, they can still completely dictate what the “all” page will look like for all instances by simply controlling what their own users see and vote on.
  • Moderation does not seem to be a priority for Threads so far, meaning that they would create massive moderation workloads for smaller instances.
  • In general, Facebook has shown countless times that they don’t have their users best interests in mind. They view users as something to exploit for revenue. There are probably ways they are already thinking about hurting the fediverse that we can’t even imagine yet.

By the way, we’re not really in any rush today with our decision regarding federation

  • Threads does not have ActivityPub support yet today
  • Even if they add ActivityPub support, their UX is geared towards Mastodon-like usage - it seems unlikely that there would ever be proper interoperability between Threads and Lemmy
  • We don’t really know what to defederate from - it’s completely possible that “threads.net” will not be their ActivityPub domain at all.

So go ahead and downvote if you feel defederation would be a mistake, and feel free to share your thoughts in the comments! It would be super helpful to me if folks who are in favor of federating with Threads could leave a comment explaining their reasoning.

Update:

By now, it’s clear that there is a group of users who are in favor of federating with Threads. The breakdown is like this (based on downvotes):

  • lemm.ee users: 136 in favor of federating with Threads
  • Others: 288 in favor of federating with Threads

While it seems to be a minority, it’s still quite a few users. There is no way to please all users in this situation - any decision I make will certainly inconvenience some of you, and I apologize for that.

A big thanks to everybody who has shared opinions and arguments in comments so far. I think there are several well written comments that have been unfairly downvoted, but I have personally read all comments and tried to respond to several as well. I will keep reading them as they come in.

The main facts I am working with right now are as follows:

  • The majority of lemm.ee users are strongly opposed to immediately federating with Threads
  • Facebook has a proven track record of exploiting users (and a built-in financial incentive to do so)
  • We currently lack proper federation/moderation tools to allow us to properly handle rule breaking content from Facebook

Considering all of the above, I believe the initial approach for lemm.ee should be to defederate Threads, and then monitor the situation for a period of time to determine if federating with them in the future is a realistic option

In order to federate with them, the following conditions would need to be fulfilled:

  • There needs to be actual interoperability between Threads and Lemmy
  • Threads needs to prove that they are not flooding instances with rule-breaking content (mainly ads and bigotry for lemm.ee)
  • There needs to be a mechanism to prevent feed manipulation by Threads algorithms (potentially this means discarding all incoming votes from Threads)

Note: this is an initial list, subject to change as we learn more about Threads.

Again, I realize this approach won’t please everybody, but I really believe it’s the best approach on a whole for now. Please feel free to keep adding comments and keep the discussion going if you think there is something I have not considered.

  • awesome_person
    710·
    1 year ago

    I am personally against defederaring from Threads.

    Facebook is completely driven by ad revenue. There is nothing stopping them from sending out ads as posts/comments with artificially inflated scores, which would ensure that their ads end up on the “all” page of federated servers.

    If Facebook goes out of their way to push ads like that then yes, defederation is perfectly justified and invalidates everything else. However, there’s no way to know what they will actually do until they do it. While at the moment it doesn’t have ads, it obviously will in the future. But will those ads be actual posts, or just shown in the Threads UI? Can the users interact with them? What if they are posts, but without artificially inflated counts, so they’ll have less interaction than regular posts anyway.

    Threads already has more users than all Lemmy instances combined. Even if their algorithms don’t apply to the rest of the fediverse directly, they can still completely dictate what the “all” page will look like for all instances by simply controlling what their own users see and vote on.

    If other fediverse users can see posts on Threads, it works the other way around too. Threads users will be able to interact with posts outside of it. “But they’ll only show posts from other Threads users!!”, until a user wants to follow someone not on Threads. Yes, that number is shrinking, but it doesn’t have to once they federate. You can simply not make an account on Threads, users on Threads will follow you just fine, and you will show up next to everyone else. Threads may be a majority, but it won’t be all of it.

    Hell, having a Threads majority might not be a good thing. What if the content is good? What if it’s stuff you actually want to see?

    Moderation does not seem to be a priority for Threads so far, meaning that they would create massive moderation workloads for smaller instances.

    …i don’t really see how that’s the case. Since using Threads requires an Instagram account, that’s already an okay protection against bots. As for trolls, you can use the federation to your advantage, to make tools on non-Threads platforms like bots to handle it. If anything, the main Threads instance itself will be way less moderated than smaller ones. Also the only difference between trolls/bots on Threads and other platforms is the amount, you can do bad shit here too.

    In general, Facebook has shown countless times that they don’t have their users best interests in mind. They view users as something to exploit for revenue. There are probably ways they are already thinking about hurting the fediverse that we can’t even imagine yet.

    Then don’t use Threads itself. That’s the entire fucking point of the Fediverse. You can use whatdver instance you want. If you don’t use Meta’s instance, all they can collect is publically available data they could get without the existence of Threads no issue. They cant shove in ads that aren’t actual posts which likely won’t get interactions and can be blocked, and if they put ads as actual posts with inflated numbers then it’s perfectly fair to defederate. Assuming they go the EEE route, you can still enjoy Threads while it’s at the first E, and then not follow with them when they go for the 2nd.

    However

    By defederating, you’re locking out everyone on Threads. While that might sound like a good thing to some, that’s still thousands if not millions of people that would be interested in the content here and would post. There’s a good chance they won’t know they can just make an account somewhere else, and just miss out. Why punish the user for what the company did?

    You should at least give Threads a chance, at least as an early bird before they look into ads. When they start turning it profitable, then is the actual discussion for whether you should defederate, which will likely go through. We could even take this as an occasion to get Threads users off of Threads, off of Facebook.

    Or I could just be a clown for giving Meta a chance. Only the future will tell

    Edit: I have since changed my mind on this, and I want to explain why

    I forgot we’re talking about Meta here. Obviously they won’t make this in a way that’s mutually beneficial. They want to make money off of it. So when time comes to ad adds, they’ll obviously make sure everyone sees them. And if we keep them for now, when we inevitability have to federate because Threads becomes profit driven, things will suck way more than if we never federated, because users from over here will lose access to content they were interested in on Threads, and vice versa. By embracing the first E, all we’re doing is welcoming Facebook in the one place meant to keep distance from them.

    I completely forgot the point of the fediverse is for it to not be controlled by a single entity. And while Threads can’t replace the fediverse, they can definitely conquer it, and since we’re talking about Meta, if they can they will, and Mark “they trust me, dumb fucks” Zuckerberk will obviously find a way to monetize users on non-Threads fediverse if given the chance.

    • speaker_hat@lemmy.one
      8·
      1 year ago

      They have given many chances in the past, unfortunately it won’t be different this time. It’s the same revenue strategy but in a different name. Zuck won’t start a “playground” project in recession time. They need the money, they need data, he wants control.

    • dis_honestfamiliar@lemmy.world
      4·
      1 year ago

      Idk. I’m not lemm.ee user but I think allowing meta is a bad idea. I think it should be rejected before it even gets a chance. Force threads users to join Lemmy. That’s my take. On the other hand, maybe the relationship between Lemmy and meta will be that like Microsoft and Linux? I heard it helped with Linux. At least some. Idk.

    • jandar_fett@lemmy.fmhy.ml
      3·
      1 year ago

      You got downvotes and I don’t know if you also got a rebutall, but here is a simple one: This seems to be an extremely naive take on the situation and all over the fediverse you can find detailed write ups of why taking a “wait and see” approach could prove disastrous for the entire experiment, but I’m not going to do your homework for you. I just wanted to give you some idea of why your take isn’t very popular.