Just here to point out that the USA has sent about $71B to Ukraine. We’ve sent more than the next 7 countries combined. Further the military allotment of that (43B) dwarfs the next country (which I’m now reading is EU Institutions) by 10B.
The conservative party’s job is to reduce spending and make sure we aren’t moving too far into debt. They’re wrong in a HUGE number of cases, and I don’t know what I think about this case. It’s a bit unfair though, to call them traitors when the next country down the list would have to DOUBLE their contribution to this war to even be in the same conversation as us. We’ve paid a lot.
Adding complexity to this conversation, part of what we’re wanting to send is cluster munitions. Am extremely controversial move and one which I believe we should rethink.
We’ve only sent $71B by DOD accounting. We’re giving them our old stuff that we would have disposed of and buying new stockpiles. In most cases we would have done this anyway.
Even if it were the case that we’ve spent $71B we otherwise would not have, that’s a damn good deal. We’re defeating our greatest geopolitical adversary for 5% of our military budget while hardly lifting a finger. Now that’s cost cutting!
Cluster munitions are normally controversial but in this case I don’t think they are. Cluster munitions are controversial because they leave tons of unexploded ordinance sitting around like landmines waiting for someone to die later, but that doesn’t matter in this war in my opinion for two reasons. Number 1 it’s Ukraine’s land and if they think saturating it with little explosives they’ll need to clean up later is a good thing to do that’s their business. Number 2 Ukraine is covered in all sorts of UXO right now, including the somehow non-controversial literal land mines.
In the cluster munitions argument (which I put in but I don’t believe is core to this argument) I believe we leave behind something like 15% of bomblets to the average 40%. I’m not sure that’s good enough for me, personally… but then again the fact that it’s Ukrainian land does make me think that it’s not quite so black and white as cluster munitions normally are. I’m still not convinced but I think it’s a worthwhile argument either way.
To the rest of the argument. Great points and I hadn’t considered the DOD budget being the primary source of data. As it stands though we’ve still sent something like 30B (a tie with the remaining EU) and yes we’re sending old gear (a wise choice imo) but it’s still not nothing. Even supposing it’s only worth 50% of what it’s billed, we’re still something like 40% above the next largest contributor to the war.
Im still not necessarily passing judgement on it being a good idea (I don’t know what I think) but I just think that it’s a bit unfair to say any opinions against sending more money over is “traitorous” I also think that is a worthwhile debate.
Just here to point out that the USA has sent about $71B to Ukraine. We’ve sent more than the next 7 countries combined. Further the military allotment of that (43B) dwarfs the next country (which I’m now reading is EU Institutions) by 10B.
The conservative party’s job is to reduce spending and make sure we aren’t moving too far into debt. They’re wrong in a HUGE number of cases, and I don’t know what I think about this case. It’s a bit unfair though, to call them traitors when the next country down the list would have to DOUBLE their contribution to this war to even be in the same conversation as us. We’ve paid a lot.
Adding complexity to this conversation, part of what we’re wanting to send is cluster munitions. Am extremely controversial move and one which I believe we should rethink.
We’ve only sent $71B by DOD accounting. We’re giving them our old stuff that we would have disposed of and buying new stockpiles. In most cases we would have done this anyway.
Even if it were the case that we’ve spent $71B we otherwise would not have, that’s a damn good deal. We’re defeating our greatest geopolitical adversary for 5% of our military budget while hardly lifting a finger. Now that’s cost cutting!
Cluster munitions are normally controversial but in this case I don’t think they are. Cluster munitions are controversial because they leave tons of unexploded ordinance sitting around like landmines waiting for someone to die later, but that doesn’t matter in this war in my opinion for two reasons. Number 1 it’s Ukraine’s land and if they think saturating it with little explosives they’ll need to clean up later is a good thing to do that’s their business. Number 2 Ukraine is covered in all sorts of UXO right now, including the somehow non-controversial literal land mines.
In the cluster munitions argument (which I put in but I don’t believe is core to this argument) I believe we leave behind something like 15% of bomblets to the average 40%. I’m not sure that’s good enough for me, personally… but then again the fact that it’s Ukrainian land does make me think that it’s not quite so black and white as cluster munitions normally are. I’m still not convinced but I think it’s a worthwhile argument either way.
To the rest of the argument. Great points and I hadn’t considered the DOD budget being the primary source of data. As it stands though we’ve still sent something like 30B (a tie with the remaining EU) and yes we’re sending old gear (a wise choice imo) but it’s still not nothing. Even supposing it’s only worth 50% of what it’s billed, we’re still something like 40% above the next largest contributor to the war.
Im still not necessarily passing judgement on it being a good idea (I don’t know what I think) but I just think that it’s a bit unfair to say any opinions against sending more money over is “traitorous” I also think that is a worthwhile debate.