So the meat industry is basically a giant concentration camp of suffering, but im unsure if the suffering outweighs all the workers it employs, or evsn ths fact that they taste good.
it’s okay that sentient beings suffer because you think they taste good. you must realise how genuinely fucked up that thought is, right? what gives you any right to decide your favourite treat is more important than a life? animals feel pain. they have wants that aren’t purely instinctual. their right to autonomy is more important than your desire for treats or a paycheck for workers - paycheck that comes at a heavy price, mind you. a job that requires mass killing has negative psychological and sometimes even physical effects on people.
at the end of the day, we’re leftists because we believe that pushing suffering on the innocent is wrong. pigs, cows, chickens have done nothing to deserve death. buying their corpses to eat is completely out of step with the values communists and anarchists claim to hold.
My leftism is about better human social organisation for every human’s benefit and reduced suffering. Beyond the practicality of ensuring a sustainable planetary ecosystem, it has nothing to do with other animals.
“My leftism has nothing to do with empathy or recognizing the suffering of others, it has only to do with benefiting those that I deem enough “like me” to be worth my consideration! Leftism is all about making things better for me and my kind! No, that’s not reactionary! I’m not a chud! I’m a leftist, really!”
Feel free to go and busy yourself making the world better for rocks or something? You draw your own line at making the world better for things that sufficiently ‘like you’, too. I deem humans sufficiently ‘like me’, and there are plenty practical reasons for encompassing all humans in a just world, too. You just deem animals also sufficiently ‘like you’, but I don’t personally see sufficient reasoning to extend that far.
you really need to self crit and think about why you think beings only like you deserve safety and freedom from oppression. that really is so incompatible with everything we talk about here
There is actually adequate scientific evidence that many animals have a much greater awareness and emotional intelligence then we often attribute to them, this includes most if not all of our domesticated animals. You could argue that the act of meat eating isn’t in itself amoral, but the mass suffering facilitated by the conditions within the meat industry certainly is. Not to mention the conditions it subjects its workers to. There is no ethical industrialized meat consumption.
idk, what does “feel” mean? the ones with nervous systems and appropriate receptors probably have a stimulus response. do they have an experiential self that sits in that stimulus and dwells on it like people? do they have opinions about pain?
Recognizing the capacity of animals to understand and suffer is basic science, not idealism. People with pets understand this and we know they should protect the health and well-being of the animals they keep. In fact, they often support laws requiring that pets are treated well enough.
But the moment it’s a designated food animal, this goes out the window and brains shut off.
So anyways are you gonna eat dogs and cats or are you an “idealist”?
It has nothing to do with where I personally draw the line, asshole. It has everything to do with the scientifically established reality about who is capable of suffering. Rocks can’t. Cows, pigs, etc. can. Just because your sphere of empathy is arbitrarily drawn to reinforce what’s convenient for you doesn’t mean that by necessity everyone else is so shallow, cruel, and morally inconsistent.
Animal agriculture is a disgustingly exploitive industry with awful environmental practices. Even if you only care about the human side of it you should want it to end.
if your empathy and concern for suffering ends at humans, i don’t think you’re a proper leftist and you should take your belief in autonomy and freedom from oppression to it’s logical conclusion (animal liberation)
I just draw my line at the necessity of autonomy and freedom from oppression at humans. Best I can understand, typical vegans just draw their line at animals. I don’t see an objective logical path to animal liberation.
I agree that the suffering of the innocent is wrong, but thats not why im a leftist. Maybe thats why this is so important to you and not as much me? Im a leftist because i like helping people and it gives me a justification to use that isnt religion. I do feel how you do about a specific type of suffering - I strongly hate anyone who pushes people to the margins of society and social situations, so ive always wanted to be friends with homeless people and trans people. If animals could suffer that way then id care more. The worst part about the animal holocaust is how alone and alienated they must be from a “happy life”. Their murder doesnt really phase me the same way starving people really dont. I also believe strongly in advocating for collective self interest because its effective. When you combine that with my love of authority and being dominated by people who deserve the authority it is why im a communist.
Not really related, but my time on a farm has actually given me a strong hatred of chickens. They kill eachother for fun, even when treated veey well with a coop thats too big for them. Cows and pigs are nice.
it’s okay that sentient beings suffer because you think they taste good. you must realise how genuinely fucked up that thought is, right? what gives you any right to decide your favourite treat is more important than a life? animals feel pain. they have wants that aren’t purely instinctual. their right to autonomy is more important than your desire for treats or a paycheck for workers - paycheck that comes at a heavy price, mind you. a job that requires mass killing has negative psychological and sometimes even physical effects on people.
at the end of the day, we’re leftists because we believe that pushing suffering on the innocent is wrong. pigs, cows, chickens have done nothing to deserve death. buying their corpses to eat is completely out of step with the values communists and anarchists claim to hold.
My leftism is about better human social organisation for every human’s benefit and reduced suffering. Beyond the practicality of ensuring a sustainable planetary ecosystem, it has nothing to do with other animals.
“My leftism has nothing to do with empathy or recognizing the suffering of others, it has only to do with benefiting those that I deem enough “like me” to be worth my consideration! Leftism is all about making things better for me and my kind! No, that’s not reactionary! I’m not a chud! I’m a leftist, really!”
Feel free to go and busy yourself making the world better for rocks or something? You draw your own line at making the world better for things that sufficiently ‘like you’, too. I deem humans sufficiently ‘like me’, and there are plenty practical reasons for encompassing all humans in a just world, too. You just deem animals also sufficiently ‘like you’, but I don’t personally see sufficient reasoning to extend that far.
you really need to self crit and think about why you think beings only like you deserve safety and freedom from oppression. that really is so incompatible with everything we talk about here
“Oppression and subjugation of a living thing is fine so long as it can’t speak to me and tell me it doesn’t like it. Extra points if it’s tasty!”
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There is actually adequate scientific evidence that many animals have a much greater awareness and emotional intelligence then we often attribute to them, this includes most if not all of our domesticated animals. You could argue that the act of meat eating isn’t in itself amoral, but the mass suffering facilitated by the conditions within the meat industry certainly is. Not to mention the conditions it subjects its workers to. There is no ethical industrialized meat consumption.
yes, the labor conditions are something that harms people, especially in slaughterhouses.
do you think non-human animals dont feel pain
idk, what does “feel” mean? the ones with nervous systems and appropriate receptors probably have a stimulus response. do they have an experiential self that sits in that stimulus and dwells on it like people? do they have opinions about pain?
brb, chopping a cat’s foot off without anesthetic
you’re not seriously doing this debatelord bit lmao
Recognizing the capacity of animals to understand and suffer is basic science, not idealism. People with pets understand this and we know they should protect the health and well-being of the animals they keep. In fact, they often support laws requiring that pets are treated well enough.
But the moment it’s a designated food animal, this goes out the window and brains shut off.
So anyways are you gonna eat dogs and cats or are you an “idealist”?
It has nothing to do with where I personally draw the line, asshole. It has everything to do with the scientifically established reality about who is capable of suffering. Rocks can’t. Cows, pigs, etc. can. Just because your sphere of empathy is arbitrarily drawn to reinforce what’s convenient for you doesn’t mean that by necessity everyone else is so shallow, cruel, and morally inconsistent.
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Animal agriculture is a disgustingly exploitive industry with awful environmental practices. Even if you only care about the human side of it you should want it to end.
Yeah, I want all sorts of horrible industries under Capitalism to end.
if your empathy and concern for suffering ends at humans, i don’t think you’re a proper leftist and you should take your belief in autonomy and freedom from oppression to it’s logical conclusion (animal liberation)
i thought hexbear didn’t allow sectarianism
it’s not sectarian to advocate against suffering
you are the one true leftist, further left than any AES, the soviet union, and everybody the CIA overthrew.
Liberals here made the same comparisons so that they could continue to be transphobic.
This is a reactionary pattern. Go do self-crit.
Would it be sectarianism if some people here supported slavery and other people pointed out that that makes them objectively garbage human beings?
In this scenario though, every major socialist movement in history, including major socialist states today, support slavery too.
That rule was always enforced arbitrarily.
I just draw my line at the necessity of autonomy and freedom from oppression at humans. Best I can understand, typical vegans just draw their line at animals. I don’t see an objective logical path to animal liberation.
“I’m about as far left as they get but [Cognitohazard Take]”
“I’m about as far left as they get but [Cognitohazard Take]”
Oh no it’s a redditor, I’m owned and melting into a puddle!
I agree that the suffering of the innocent is wrong, but thats not why im a leftist. Maybe thats why this is so important to you and not as much me? Im a leftist because i like helping people and it gives me a justification to use that isnt religion. I do feel how you do about a specific type of suffering - I strongly hate anyone who pushes people to the margins of society and social situations, so ive always wanted to be friends with homeless people and trans people. If animals could suffer that way then id care more. The worst part about the animal holocaust is how alone and alienated they must be from a “happy life”. Their murder doesnt really phase me the same way starving people really dont. I also believe strongly in advocating for collective self interest because its effective. When you combine that with my love of authority and being dominated by people who deserve the authority it is why im a communist.
Not really related, but my time on a farm has actually given me a strong hatred of chickens. They kill eachother for fun, even when treated veey well with a coop thats too big for them. Cows and pigs are nice.
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it’s never surprising seeing you show your ass in a thread about veganism every chance you get