What makes anti China propaganda so effective is that people want to believe it.
Believing that western system is fundamentally better allows justifying all the horrors we see day to day by saying that the alternatives are even worse, and so we shouldn't even try to change anything.
Accepting that China managed to find a better path that the west is actively fighting against means having to accept that the west is on the wrong side of history. That's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.
Yeah, it’s weird that people prefer democracy to dictatorship. Freedom of speech is pretty important too.
I have a lot of issues with capitalism, but that doesn’t mean I’m ready to give up on democracy as a whole. And China has just about as many of those capitalism problems as we do.
And China has just about as many of those capitalism problems as we do.
Do you really think China has all of the same capitalism problems?
China doesn’t have:
a rampant and actively ignored homeless problem
widespread food insecurity, including among children
a disgustingly large and widening wealth gap, with the government bribery that comes with it
inaccessible or unaffordable healthcare for a large portion of its population, especially those most needing of it
reversal of child labor laws and increasing promotion of its use
destruction of the education system and villifying those seeking to escape generational poverty
a massive and increasing renting population (compared to those with outright ownership), spending an increasingly large fraction of their constantly decreasing wages on housing
an incarceration rate nearly five times average developed nations driven largely by for-profit prisons and slave labor performed by the imprisoned
Does China have problems related to capitalism’s influence? Of course. Does it have as many, or do they permeate it so deeply and thoroughly? Of course not.
As soon as someone says “China’s capitalist too” it’s a sign that they are sorely lacking information on how Chinese system actually functions and it makes me wonder if they’ve even bothered trying to learn about it at all. The comparison is ludicrous at this point.
In general I agree, it’s just from the specific comment I replied to it isn’t immediately obvious if they’re saying “China is suffering from the same problems as capitalist states (despite not being one)” or if they’re saying “China is suffering from the same problems because it’s also capitalist”.
Dog we are communists, we don’t get “freedom of speech”, if we become an actual threat to state power they have and will again in the future imprison and kill us
Good luck changing anything in this world in bourgeois democracy if you’re not wealthy and influential… It’s a dictatorship of capitalist class, not more nor less.
Where did you get the notion that it’s a dictatorship?
Did it ever cross your mind how the world’s largest population has agreed to live in a dictatorship? Same is the case with DPRK.
Did you ever asked yourself how is this possible in 2023 that no news ever comes out about people’s revolt in these countries ever when even one of their leader’s haircut becomes a news.
China does not have parliamentary democracy doesn’t mean it doesn’t have democracy instead it’s more democratic then the western lib dems.
If you never has had a chance to have an alternate view, you are welcome to lurk and learn. We have all been there where you are now. Probably one day you too would see the world for what it really is instead of what its shown to be.
Did you ever asked yourself how is this possible in 2023 that no news ever comes out about people’s revolt in these countries ever when even one of their leader’s haircut becomes a news.
If the sheer number of slave and colonial rebellions were general knowledge, the idea that 1.4bn people would meekly do as they’re told by a dictator would be obviously bullshit.
Unfortunately, acknowledging that slaves and colonies constantly fought the masters and colonisers doesn’t fit the narrative that they all ‘enjoyed the experience’—a little something to put on the CV. And this rebellion is ongoing; the US might install puppet regimes but still the people rise up. Everywhere in the world.
Apparently, we’re supposed to believe that the only people who don’t rise up are those under communist ‘dictatorships’. They must be very effective. Is suppose this is what happens when you force everyone into housing, fill up their fridges, and provide them with energy—they become too confused and dazed to think about acting out.
When asked whether they believe their country is democratic, those in China topped the list, with some 83% saying the communist-led People’s Republic was a democracy. A resounding 91% said that democracy is important to them.
But in the U.S., which touts itself as a global beacon of democracy, only 49% of those asked said their country was a democracy. And just over three-quarters of respondents, 76%, said democracy was important.
For instance, some 63% in the U.S. said their government mainly serves the interests of a minority, while only 7% said the same in China. Asked about whether their country held free and fair elections and offered all citizens the right to free speech, nearly a third of respondents in the U.S., 32% and 31%, respectively, said they did not, while just 17% and 5%, respectively, in China answered the same questions negatively.
And in China, a mere 5% also said not everyone enjoys equal rights in their country, as opposed to 42% who identified this same issue in the U.S.
Yeah, but the sign of a healthy democracy isn’t how much the people feel like their voices are being heard, it’s entirely dependent on how much people are allowed to complain about things! (But not actually change them of course, let’s not go crazy here).
World you participate in a mild, painless experiment? Would you carefully read Roland Boer’s Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, and then come back here with an honest review? You don’t even have to agree with him. All I ask for is a fair treatment.
… This whole framework and its usually unquestioned assumptions produces strange works that seek to analyse China as an emerging capitalist market economy, with a rising middle class that would demand its liberal ‘freedom and democracy’ were it not for a repressive Communist party…. It certainly leads to circular research ‘results’. A good example is the search for ‘evidence’ of ‘democracy’, focussing on grassroots democratic practices. Since the whole perspective for what counts as ‘democracy’ is the rather thin Western liberal notion, they typically fail to find ‘evidence’ and so must conclude that such an absence is due to an ‘authoritarian’ political structure that ‘represses’ such ‘democracy’. You cannot find what is not there, especially when you ignore the reality of a relatively mature socialist democracy.
… For Chinese scholars, those who peddle Western perspectives and models fall into the trap of yixi jiezhong, seeking to understand China with Western eyes. …
Out of interest, what’s the legality of that? It’s not the same as torrenting, but does anyone know whether there are implications for sharing links to databases?
I would imagine it would be frowned upon by the Vogons in the copyright cartels. But I doubt they’ll toss up any roadblocks for a small site like this.
I think I’m going to read this next. Do you have any other recommendations on Chinese history, the revolution, socialist development or honestly anything China related?
Well, tbh, this is a relatively new topic for me, so I don’t have a wide range of sources. I plan to slowly work through the sources cited in Boer’s book.
Edgar Snow’s Red Star Over China is a good book about the start of the revolution. Snow was a US journalist but all things considered, he gives a fair account.
There are some good Chinese movies on YouTube. There’s an old thread about some on here. I’ll try to find it and share the link. It’s really strange to watch movies where US soldiers aren’t the heroes. You just get a completely different sense of perspective, which is required to fully understand China.
Roland Boer’s Socialism with Chinese Characteristics
Thank you for this. I’ve only just read the first chapter, and it’s already eye-opening how it addresses the Western approach to discourse about China.
Its a huge book for me and after reading it I felt like I actually knew something and had a foundation to learn more. The sheer amount of sources and citations makes it possible to really expand your knowledge on these topics in ways many westerners simply won’t.
I get that you are arguing from a place of good faith but China absolutely has less problems economically (for the average person) than the US does. For example I had a pretty tough familial loss recently and the medical bills were a whole nother level of suffering for my family. If we lived nearly anywhere else (let alone in China) the cost would be not only more affordable, but usually treatment is more affective as well(also related to cost tbh, bc you have better health outcomes the more time you spend in the care of good medical professionals and doctors, and the more time you spend with them, the more money you spend with them). I just wanted to give my 2 cents on how living in the US is a bit of a punishment in some ways and that you can draw comparisons between the US and China’s capitalist elements but end of the day, USA is a way worse form of capitalism. I hope I didn’t come off rude or anything, I wish you a good day😊
Yeah, it’s weird that people prefer democracy to dictatorship. Freedom of speech is pretty important too.
I have a lot of issues with capitalism, but that doesn’t mean I’m ready to give up on democracy as a whole. And China has just about as many of those capitalism problems as we do.
Do you really think China has all of the same capitalism problems?
China doesn’t have:
Does China have problems related to capitalism’s influence? Of course. Does it have as many, or do they permeate it so deeply and thoroughly? Of course not.
As soon as someone says “China’s capitalist too” it’s a sign that they are sorely lacking information on how Chinese system actually functions and it makes me wonder if they’ve even bothered trying to learn about it at all. The comparison is ludicrous at this point.
In general I agree, it’s just from the specific comment I replied to it isn’t immediately obvious if they’re saying “China is suffering from the same problems as capitalist states (despite not being one)” or if they’re saying “China is suffering from the same problems because it’s also capitalist”.
I’m gonna guess it’s the latter, given the democracy comment.
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Dog we are communists, we don’t get “freedom of speech”, if we become an actual threat to state power they have and will again in the future imprison and kill us
In America your words have no weight, so the government can let you say whatever you want. What value is there then in “freedom of speech”?
That’s why I support China and want to destroy the burger empire.
Good luck changing anything in this world in bourgeois democracy if you’re not wealthy and influential… It’s a dictatorship of capitalist class, not more nor less.
Where did you get the notion that it’s a dictatorship? Did it ever cross your mind how the world’s largest population has agreed to live in a dictatorship? Same is the case with DPRK.
Did you ever asked yourself how is this possible in 2023 that no news ever comes out about people’s revolt in these countries ever when even one of their leader’s haircut becomes a news.
China does not have parliamentary democracy doesn’t mean it doesn’t have democracy instead it’s more democratic then the western lib dems.
If you never has had a chance to have an alternate view, you are welcome to lurk and learn. We have all been there where you are now. Probably one day you too would see the world for what it really is instead of what its shown to be.
If the sheer number of slave and colonial rebellions were general knowledge, the idea that 1.4bn people would meekly do as they’re told by a dictator would be obviously bullshit.
Unfortunately, acknowledging that slaves and colonies constantly fought the masters and colonisers doesn’t fit the narrative that they all ‘enjoyed the experience’—a little something to put on the CV. And this rebellion is ongoing; the US might install puppet regimes but still the people rise up. Everywhere in the world.
Apparently, we’re supposed to believe that the only people who don’t rise up are those under communist ‘dictatorships’. They must be very effective. Is suppose this is what happens when you force everyone into housing, fill up their fridges, and provide them with energy—they become too confused and dazed to think about acting out.
And what exactly is the definition of democracy are you basing that of?
https://www.newsweek.com/most-china-call-their-nation-democracy-most-us-say-america-isnt-1711176
For the complete data here’s the spreadsheet of the “Democracy Perception Index 2022 - Topline Results”.
Yeah, but the sign of a healthy democracy isn’t how much the people feel like their voices are being heard, it’s entirely dependent on how much people are allowed to complain about things! (But not actually change them of course, let’s not go crazy here).
World you participate in a mild, painless experiment? Would you carefully read Roland Boer’s Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, and then come back here with an honest review? You don’t even have to agree with him. All I ask for is a fair treatment.
You will never ever get a bad faith liberal like this to read unfortunately
Just in case they might read a few lines:
Linkage.
EDIT: Please normalise all book recommendations with links to copies.
Out of interest, what’s the legality of that? It’s not the same as torrenting, but does anyone know whether there are implications for sharing links to databases?
I would imagine it would be frowned upon by the Vogons in the copyright cartels. But I doubt they’ll toss up any roadblocks for a small site like this.
Plus there’s https://lemmygrad.ml/c/leftpiracy for example.
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I think I’m going to read this next. Do you have any other recommendations on Chinese history, the revolution, socialist development or honestly anything China related?
Well, tbh, this is a relatively new topic for me, so I don’t have a wide range of sources. I plan to slowly work through the sources cited in Boer’s book.
Edgar Snow’s Red Star Over China is a good book about the start of the revolution. Snow was a US journalist but all things considered, he gives a fair account.
And I’ve read some of the link in Dessalines’ link-list, On Mao, Maoism, and Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, and the PRC.
And the Qiao Collective publishes some great videos: https://yewtu.be/channel/UCPi2i0AZTD2IkENqN3GAbsA. Their ‘China and the Left’ conference was especially enjoyable: https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLQFBO6UUfDCQoIxtdxX5dVRwl1kS9IhnV.
There’s also the works of Mao, Deng, and Xi.
CGTN has some good stuff but its a bit of a chore to find the documentaries, etc: https://yewtu.be/channel/UCgrNz-aDmcr2uuto8_DL2jg/playlists.
News with Jingjing has some good videos: https://yewtu.be/channel/UCPvWHbIwTHbXX9Jo_Vephdg.
There are some good Chinese movies on YouTube. There’s an old thread about some on here. I’ll try to find it and share the link. It’s really strange to watch movies where US soldiers aren’t the heroes. You just get a completely different sense of perspective, which is required to fully understand China.
Edit: I’m unsure how good this is just there’s a section of resources in China, here: https://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/.
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Thank you for this. I’ve only just read the first chapter, and it’s already eye-opening how it addresses the Western approach to discourse about China.
Its a huge book for me and after reading it I felt like I actually knew something and had a foundation to learn more. The sheer amount of sources and citations makes it possible to really expand your knowledge on these topics in ways many westerners simply won’t.
“but muh freeze peach!”
Dictatorship… of the proletariats!
I get that you are arguing from a place of good faith but China absolutely has less problems economically (for the average person) than the US does. For example I had a pretty tough familial loss recently and the medical bills were a whole nother level of suffering for my family. If we lived nearly anywhere else (let alone in China) the cost would be not only more affordable, but usually treatment is more affective as well(also related to cost tbh, bc you have better health outcomes the more time you spend in the care of good medical professionals and doctors, and the more time you spend with them, the more money you spend with them). I just wanted to give my 2 cents on how living in the US is a bit of a punishment in some ways and that you can draw comparisons between the US and China’s capitalist elements but end of the day, USA is a way worse form of capitalism. I hope I didn’t come off rude or anything, I wish you a good day😊