So I’ve finally been doing my little reddit/twitter migration against my better judgement (my better judgement would say to take the opportunity to get off the internet but who listens to that loser). I’m finding all these platforms interesting, I particularly like how kbin combines both formats and links up to Mastodon, that’s quite an idea.
Having said that all this nonsense made me nostalgic for Usenet all over again. I had some very enjoyable years on there and quite a lot of what I liked about Reddit was actually that it felt like the closest thing the web had to Usenet. (You’d think Google Groups was the closest thing but for some reason it wasn’t. There is something I just loved about a newsreader’s interface that Google Groups didn’t replicate and it was just annoying).
It actually made me go check some old newsgroups out, and, well, that’s the eternal problem Usenet isn’t it - it being 99% dead as a parrot.
Is anybody still on Usenet, and if so what newsgroups do you follow? For that matter, what newsgroups are you aware of as still having some activity? Is anybody interested in getting (back) on it, and if so on where? Is Google Groups still in 2023 the best the web has to offer in terms of accessing it easily?
Usenet arose during a time when the people using computers actually understood how they worked and how to use them. Asking someone to download and install a Usenet client then set it up to connect to a server of their choice and then subscribing to newsgroups is way above and beyond what most people are willing to do in 2023, sadly.
If it’s not on a touchscreen, and not able to be done with 2 or 3 taps, then it ain’t happening.
Expanding on this, I’m worried a technological education gap is forming among the youth. Old people didnt grow up with computers, they have an excuse. Middle aged people had to deal with the computers of the 80s and 90s, and because of that, understand computing pretty well. Young people were born into a world of instant gratification and super simplified touchscreen GUI interfaces, and from talking with them, it’s clear most of them know how to get on the internet and do their thing on social media, but most of them have no clue how the nuts and bolts of it all work.
Asking someone to download and install a Usenet client then set it up to connect to a server of their choice and then subscribing to newsgroups is way above and beyond what most people are willing to do in 2023, sadly.
This is not true at all. People download phone clients all the time. And there were also Usenet web clients. Subscribing to newsgroups is exactly the same as subscribing to subreddets or kbin magazines. And you have to pick a server for Fedverse also, but the the Usenet server doesn’t matter at all like a Fedverse server does.
The only reason people don’t use Usenet is because the free servers disappeared and ISPs no longer provided it with your internet service.
I agree with your points about ease of use, but even back when ISPs provided Usenet access, it was still pretty niche. Most people weren’t even aware that it existed. It was covered in the old “Internet for Dummies” sorts of books back in the 90s, but I’ve never met anyone IRL who used it, not even back when I worked at a university.
Yeah, I got into it from the TalkOrigin.org website, and 1) I’d never have gotten into it otherwise, no question, and 2) I think it took years and many, many attempts to go from “huh they refer to a talk.origins ‘newsgroup’ where all this fun discussion comes from, oh the link does something weird nvm” to “OH HEY I MANAGED TO SIGN UP THIS THING IS REAL WHODATHUNK”.
I said that in another comment but I think discoverability is huge. The way people find things out on the internet is by going to their usual internet places or asking questions of a search engine. I don’t know how people got onto Usenet in the before times but definitely at the time I got onto it everyone was on the WWW and there were very few ways to even hear about Usenet there, let alone hear something enticing enough to want to check it out. And when you combine that with the technical barrier to entry that’s pretty fatal.
Yes. plenty of articles coming out about how many in gen z are technology illiterate. I am started to see it at my workplace since we hire a lot of fresh college grads. getting more support calls for completely inane stuff that shows the person has zero basic technological knowledge, like the type of stuff that my you see from boomers. and often it’s the issue is simple the user doing things wrong and refusing to understand or learn to do them correctly, like a boomer.
it’s wild to think a 22yo is incompetent at basic computer skills, but like you said, all they do is social media crap on their phones. they have no idea how to actually work with PC/Mac applications, let alone solve basic problems or change settings.
This is why I try to involve my 5 year old god daughter in whatever tech project I’m working on whenever she’s over. I also have a bunch of edutainment games running on my Windows 98 PC that she plays. She knows how to use a keyboard and mouse, which puts her well ahead of her peers from what I understand.
I’ve only exposed my 4 year-old to Minecraft and Kerbal Space Project so far for reasons (now he understands “minecraft” to be an adjective meaning “that pixellated 90s video game retro aesthetic”, it’s adorable), but I taught in a preschool some years ago where I showed the kids Treasure Mountain and Midnight Rescue (some lucky kid might also have gotten Outnumbered but I was teaching preschool/elementary-school English, not elementary-school arithmetic). Huge hits.
Maybe it’s time to get my own kid on SST[Edit - Treasure Mountain. That might have been too obscure] come to think of it, he is of age
That’s a cute grumpy old man take but I don’t think it really holds up, not as a main cause of the desertion from Usenet at least. It’s true that Usenet arose during a time when people using computers actually understood how they worked and how to use them, but there were also a lot fewer people on the internet. I won’t hazard a guess as to in raw numbers whether the number of people who understand computers rose or decreased, but even if it decreased the fact is that there are tons of people today who were on Usenet in the day and no longer are, even though they presumably know enough about computers to get on it. Insofar as simplicity of access matters (and oh, how it matters) I suspect it’s not just about how people back then knew how to do harder things, but also that everything was harder. The differential between getting on Usenet and getting elsewhere on the internet was less large than today, where the internet overall has gotten much more user-friendly and Usenet has not.
Offhand I’d guess a more salient factor is discoverability. In order to get onto a forum you need to 1) learn that it exists, 2) be interested in checking it out, 3) check it out and 4) participate. How do people even hear about Usenet these days, let alone hear something that makes them want to check it out? When I think of it, my path to Usenet was via the TalkOrigins.org website. Even then I bounced off of actually getting onto the newsgroup for what might have been years before I finally succeeded. And that was back when ISPs supported newsgroups! How many other “portals” to Usenet newsgroups are there - I don’t mean a web interface, I mean any website that a random person surfing the web might run into that would 1) let them know this newsgroup exists and 2) make them want to check it out/participate badly enough that they’ll go through the many, many steps required to do so ?
Discoverability is even an issue once you are on Usenet. Here I am, a person who I think has a little bit of experience with the thing, asking on Kbin for people’s recommendations because I don’t have a way within Usenet to know which newsgroups are active and which are good. You have to trawl through the list, subscribe and then you find out, and the list is much too large for a layperson to trawl through usefully. I’m working with the advantage of vaguely remembering which newsgroups I liked and were humming back when I was there; I don’t know how a total newcomer would manage. Maybe there are actual websites and portals out there that help, dunno if anyone has recommendations.
Usenet suffers from two problems: 1. Network effects and 2. Paywall.
Usenet used to be where it was at for conversation on the Internet. Then it moved. Getting people to go back to Usenet is probably going to be as hard as spinning up a Facebook competitor. You want to go where people are.
Secondly, Usenet used to be bundled into your internet package along with some basic email hosting and maybe some website hosting. But then the binaries groups exploded and a lot of the ISPs dropped support. So you have to go out and buy a separate package for access now.
Usenet used to be where it was at for conversation on the Internet. Then it moved. Getting people to go back to Usenet is probably going to be as hard as spinning up a Facebook competitor.
It is purely a matter of free public servers. Right now, the free public servers are almost all Fedverse. But they could just as easily be Usenet servers. If the free Fedverse servers close like free Usenet servers did, then Fedverse will also decline. But Usenet actually has some superior features that Fedverse lacks (e.g. automatic merging of groups), so if free Usenet servers pop back up, it would take off again.
There is https://www.eternal-september.org. For me the biggest hurdle tbh was finding an email provider that was 1) anonymous (including not requiring my credit card obvi) so that I could have a specific identity for Usenet 2) had IMAP/POP3 support so I could use it with Thunderbird and 3) wasn’t gmail, yahoo or outlook/hotmail because I already have accounts with those and don’t want to keep switching. I actually failed, I ended up having to pay the email provider I’d picked for IMAP support.
Is that legit @JoeHill? I thought you were dead.
Don’t mourn; organize!
They framed him on a murder charge!
Ah yes, Usenet was the original Fediverse. Kind of. It was more of a distributed peer-to-peer system than the current day ActivityPub. I loved it back when it was mainly discussion and the .binaries groups were an awkward sideshow. Reddit filled that niche in terms of its actual function, but I always knew the underlying centralized structure of Reddit would someday be its downfall.
The sad thing is that back when it first began Reddit was actually planning on being federated too. They released their server as open source and had plans to make it able to interact with other Reddit servers. Never came to fruition.
They even paid someone to design a semi-monetary points system and then scrapped it…
There is still active discussions over usenet :) not as much as before but still, example comp.lang.php https://reader.usenet.monster/group?group=comp.lang.php
Then there are also binaries groups which are NOT dead and still living ;)
[reader.usenet.monster/group?group=comp.lang.php]
This is awesome. Thanks!
Its even having a mini resurgence at the moment.
I think that would be cool tbh. Although the more I’ve been thinking about it over the last couple of days the more I’m remembering all the various barriers to entry that make it hard on a web interface, I still feel that 1) I don’t know that any are straight-up insurmountable, as opposed to nobody having had much motivation to surmount them since like 2005, and 2) everybody doesn’t need to be on it for it to be worth being on. But you do need a minimal supply of new blood.
Do you have specifics or links on what form that mini resurgence is taking?
Hi ! I only realized that you’d posted a link after u/btaf45 (@btaf45?) highlighted it. That’s a really interesting usenet reader, do you know if there exists a website that highlights groups by activity, or can display the most recent messages from all groups like the main page of a social media aggregator? It seems to me that if reader.usenet.monster can do what it does it should be able to do that too but I don’t see that kind of page on that site.
I heard that the comp.lang ones were still active ! And while I’m not wildly into computer languages as a subject of conversation I’m not totally not into it either. Are they all mostly about helping each other with coding questions or are there some with conversations that would be interesting to something with a more generic interest in computing?
Then there are also binaries groups which are NOT dead and still living ;)
Yes I gathered that :) I don’t know if those tend to have lot of conversation though?
I see rec.arts.sf.written and talk.origins are active, which tracks honestly but is still a nice surprise. sci.bio.evolution seems deceased, I don’t know if any other science group survived.
I only use usenet for piracy
I remember when Deja was the way to read Usenet on the web (eventually was bought out by and became Google Groups). I still miss Deja.
I haven’t been on Usenet since switching to Comcast for the fastest internet service available in my area. My access to Usenet came from my previous ISPs and Comcast doesn’t do that :/
I was on a lot of the gaming and piracy alts.
Any gaming alt you remember fondly and/or that might still be active?
I was just thinking this morning how much this platform reminds me of Usenet, at least in its cross-server “fediverse.” I remember waiting days sometimes for different Usenet servers to sync up so I could get replies to shit I posted a week ago. The lag may not be as drastic with Mastodon/Lemmy/Kbin/whatever, but it’s the same basic concept.
None of this, though, makes me nostalgic for the days of newsgroups. That shit was a hot mess, and I’m frankly glad it’s effectively gone the way of gopher.
Did you feel it was a hot mess in terms of the interface, or in terms of the culture?
Usenet was the first time I interacted with the internet as it was the only thing accessible from the Unix lab we had access to (email was available but we didn’t use it). This was 1994. I was on alt.music.pink-floyd during the height of the PUBLIUS ENIGMA puzzle.
I kept using it up into the early 2000s. I’d jump on in the morning before going to work, and that’s how I found out about 9/11 (it was 12:46am NZ time when the first tower was hit). I had gone to our local newsgroup for our city and there were messages in all caps “TOWER COLLAPSED” and then “BOTH TOWERS DOWN”. I wondered what was going on, then turned on the TV where our main channel was feeding in the live news (I think it was CNN). We just sat there horrified, watching before we eventually went off to work.
I eventually stopped using it when web forums and other sites took over for me (fark, slashdot, metafilter) and then my ISP dropped support for it. Google Groups didn’t mesh with me and I never went back.
When I first jumped on here and got my head around federation, it took me back to those Usenet days because in a sense this is almost the same. I’ve seen lots of people say “federation is like email”, but to me it’s like Usenet.
I’ve seen lots of people say “federation is like email”, but to me it’s like Usenet.
It is a lot like Usenet, but Usenet has some superior features.
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Discussion groups are automatically merged across all servers. So it is decentralized but does not feel decentralized.
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Newreaders only show you content that you have not already read/seen
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Readers let you kill articles in subscribed newsgroups and threads within subscribed newsgroup articles so that you don’t see them in the future.
The more I’m remembering and re-experiencing Usenet the more it reminds me of the huge differences between it and web interfaces that contribute to it being difficult to adapt but also having its own strengths.
A huge under-appreciated difference I think is that because all the messages are essentially email and you’re meant to read them in an email client, and the threading isn’t inherent it’s the email client trying to figure out what’s a reply to what, and the message titles are displayed in a thread with a separate window for message content, you get:
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infinitely long threads
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the custom of copying the post that’s being replied to & replying at the bottom or inline, with further customs around trimming etiquette
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because the message is displayed in a separate window from the thread with its own scrollbar there is very little limit on post size other than custom (and I assume some client or server-related limit I’ve never run into, and I’m amazing at running into comment length limits on forums. Like, once I saw some apparently longtime Reddit user go “TIL there’s a 10000 character limit on comments” and I just went “how did you not know that I run into it twice a week”)
I think those things are what I truly love about Usenet as a forum interface. And I think they’re very very hard to replicate on a webpage where everything is on the same page. Most other forums are linear instead of threaded; that’s why I like Reddit so much I think! But even then there is obviously a cost in terms of page real estate to having excessively long threads, which Reddit manages in various ways. And either way, when the messages are on the same page as the tree structure then that’s an extra limit on the size of both. I think that was a big part of the issue with Google Groups, although it did perform those tasks well enough that the newsgroup was useable you always got the sense they didn’t want to. Like, there’s a tree view but it isn’t default I think? And it wasn’t great at displaying really long threads? IIRC it struggled with the quotation formats too, maybe top-posted by default. I’d have to go back to remember. I wasn’t around for DejaNews so I don’t know how they did it, other than that everybody seemed to like it.
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Publius! 😂
Oh man. Sitting in the Unix lab, looking to see if there were more clues…
Name vaguely rings a bell, please expand
Yeah it brings back fond memories of my early days on the net. Back when the WWW was just one of several services, Usenet being one of the most useful.
Now it seems it is most useful for downloading Linux ISOs
Not on it, but I see on the piracy community that it is used for those purposes.
As far as I’m aware, Usenet is mostly paid providers used for piracy these days. There’s probably still some subculture somewhere still using it for discussion, but I wouldn’t expect much.
