Russian security forces raided gay clubs and bars across Moscow Friday night, less than 48 hours after the country’s top court banned what it called the “global LGBTQ+ movement” as an extremist organization.
Police searched venues across the Russian capital, including a nightclub, a male sauna, and a bar that hosted LGBTQ+ parties, under the pretext of a drug raid, local media reported.
Eyewitnesses told journalists that clubgoers’ documents were checked and photographed by the security services. They also said that managers had been able to warn patrons before police arrived.
My experience has been exactly the opposite. They go out of their way to defend Russia and China and will hardly utter a word of criticism against either.
Here’s the thread I made on Hexbear.
https://hexbear.net/post/1232126
Four comments as of me writing this comment:
So yeah, if you’re looking for Hexbears criticizing Russia, then there you go.
I’m confused. Don’t they want to leave Nato countries? Why not go to the next best thing to them, China?
I can only assume it’s for reasons such as:
Language: there is a very large Russian/FSU diaspora in Germany, while there is only a very small Russian community in China; and LGBT+ Russians are more likely to be proficient in English than in Chinese. It then follows that integrating into society and accessing services would be easier in Germany than in China, since Germany has a high English proficiency, and a large enough Russian population for many services to be provided in that language, or for Russophones to be able to find community on the basis of shared first language. German itself, of course, is also more similar to English and Russian than it is to Chinese.
The state of LGBT+ rights: rights for LGBT+ people are better in Germany than in China. This is not to erase the strides that China has made in terms of LGBT+ rights, nor the difficulties that LGBT+ people face in Germany and the very real possibility of regression as right-wing sentiment grows in Germany; but it’s also just a fact that LGBT+ Hexbears obviously acknowledge, that it’s in many ways just easier to be LGBT+ in the core than in the periphery or semi-periphery. It sucks, but that’s the way it is, for now.
Ease of applying for asylum: becoming a refugee in China is more difficult than becoming a refugee in Germany. Last I checked, China does not officially grant asylum, and has all refugees living in the country processed by the UNHCR. Germany, on the other hand, does grant asylum. While it’s obviously a good thing that people can flee from dangerous situations and seek asylum in another country, and China really should grant official asylum to refugees; one should be aware that systemically, the imperial core’s policy towards refugees is a form of economic domination over the imperial periphery, meant to provide themselves with cheap labor and drain the capital of the periphery.
China does not need more communists: it’s not like it’s a bad thing to move to China by any means — there’s a lot of good that can be done there — but it’s also not a bad thing to move to the imperial core in order to fight the good fight “in the heart of the enemy”. That’s more people to do activism, more people to join and contribute to organizations, and so forth: if we want to build socialism around the whole world, obviously we’ll want to live around the whole world.
I dunno, these are just some of my thoughts on potential reasons why an LGBT+ Russian socialist might prefer to take refuge in Germany rather than China… Like, it could’ve also just been that Kaplya just stated the name of the first country Kaplya thought of, and the comment wasn’t meant to be read into to this extent, but either way it’s a good writing exercise.
Or, you know, it’s because nobody wants to immigrate to China? Ever notice that unlike Europe and Canada and Australia and the US, China doesn’t have an immigration problem? I wonder why that is?
In case anyone wants to know, there have been over 40k undocumented Chinese immigrants to the US this year alone, and the numbers are growing. Fortunately they are pretty easily able to claim asylum and are easily integrated into existing Chinese-American communities.
It’s so strange that we don’t see any Americans immigrating to China.
What on Earth does this even mean?
No idea. Letter from mental asylum?
Seems like they are mostly concerned with connecting “Russia bad” to liberalism, the ideology which is actually doing the most for LGBT rights. So even in contrition, they push misinformation and information warfare.
Just so that you’re aware: liberalism here refers to the belief in market economies and the right to private property. There is a bit more to liberalism, naturally, but that’s the main point. So whenever you see Hexbears talk about “libs” or “liberals”, rather than applying whatever American definition or preconception of the word “liberalism” that you may have, instead think, “someone who supports the free market and private property”… And indeed, the liberal parties in Russia are right-wing and deeply conservative: “liberal” non est “progressive”. Decouple those terms in your mind. You can have liberal progressives and liberal conservatives alike if you’re not using “liberal” as a synonym of “progressive”, like Americans tend to do.
Furthermore, LGBT+ criticisms of capitalism have a history stretching back even before Stonewall. Harry Whyte’s letter to Stalin in 1934, which criticizes the regress of gay rights in the USSR while also analyzing the position of gays in capitalism at the time, stands out. Leslie Feinberg (1949-2014) is another important figure in the history of LGBT+ communism. You might find Feinberg’s Lavender and Red to be particularly interesting, as it lays out a history of the intersection of LGBT+ rights movements and leftism.
Just so you’re aware: liberalism is the European enlightenment philosophy which holds that individual liberty and civil freedom is foundational to the curation of political agency and democratic self determination. This ML reduction to “liberalism is everything I don’t like” is factually incorrect and, like I said, intentional misinformation. Or more realistically, just bad political science, which is what most of us have come to expect from hexbears.
Russian oligarchy is in no way, shape, or form related to the belief that democracy is sacred, and political agency is a necessary condition thereof.
I think they were referring to difference between classical liberalism (usually implied by “liberalism” term in Europe) and social liberalism (usually implied in the US). The European enlightenment philosophy sounds like something that was a basis for both but contemporary state may be far from the original ideals.
Either way they’re still full of shit, so I don’t see that it even matters.
As opposed to you reducing liberalism to everything you do like, of course. How’s that “sacred democracy and political agency” working out in practice? How are you enjoying your “individual liberty”?
In terms of LGBT rights? It’s working out pretty good.
I’m not reducing anything. I’m just giving the freshmen political science definition of the term.
I know a closeted trans girl who is very clearly autistic, but who has not pursued an ASD diagnosis because she believes that she will not get treatment for her gender dysphoria if she also has an ASD diagnosis. And so she goes without any accommodations for her autism, just so that she has a better chance of getting treatment for her other major problem. Norway’s state trans health system refusing to treat autistic people is a known problem. According to Norwegian law, this type of discrimination is not supposed to happen, rather anyone who desires to transition should be allowed to transition. And yet it still happens that many Norwegians are denied that right to transition on grounds such as being autistic, and for this the health system responsible gets at most a sternly-worded letter from the government, as if reciting the law makes it a reality.
So this girl I know first pursued transitional healthcare in 2016, but is yet to actually receive any of that healthcare. Rather, the staff in the health system said that my friend needed to get out more, become more outgoing, and earn some money first. That’s what she told me they said. And so now my friend goes with me to this job skills course organized by some shoddy welfare contractor. Several other people who attend this course have gone on absolutely vitriolically transphobic tirades with us two present. And several times, my friend and I attempted to contact the staff organizing the course, to tell them that she was genuinely scared of these vitriolic transphobes, that they were traumatizing her and causing her immense distress. And the staff refused to take any action at every turn, always saying, “When you get a real job, you’ll have to be ready to deal with all kinds of people, even if you don’t agree with the things they say”.
What we could do about the staff’s refusal to take action was to file a complaint to the welfare administration, but it takes many weeks for these complaints to be processed, and this was an issue that needed to be resolved immediately. And who knows what the welfare administration would’ve actually done about the issue, probably the same “sternly-worded letter” nonsense as before, or at best transferring us to a different contractor, which would probably have the exact same issue of being too fond of cost-cutting to actually do anything about the actual Nazis in our midst… Thankfully, though, one of the transphobic reactionaries was kicked off the course when he threatened another participant with violence, another has become a no-show on most days, the third hasn’t brought up trans issues ever again after his first tirade. On top of this, another pro-trans participant has been attending more regularly, and she is principled enough to shut down transphobia even when the staff refuses to do the same. So the issue of transphobia at the job skills course seems to have died down somewhat.
I myself am taking this job skills course because I live in a home with a deeply transphobic relative, and I need to find a well-paying job that will allow me to move out and fund my transition. I already have an autism diagnosis, and I am also non-binary, which means that state healthcare is very unlikely to give me transitional medicine unless I wait and wait and wait and work myself to the bone trying to get them to actually respect their legal obligations. And other options for trans healthcare in Norway are getting thinned out, and state healthcare itself is getting gutted. Which means that I intend to fund my own transition entirely by myself, including by buying gray-market hormone therapy.
The last time I tried scraping together however little money I could for one measly pack of bicalutamide, it was seized by customs and destroyed. Customs even sent me a nice little letter about the dangers of buying medicine from foreign online pharmacies. I still keep that letter beside my bed.
And trust me, I tried voting, too. I voted Socialist Left, because I believed that of the parties that I liked “enough”, that Socialist Left were the most likely to get a substantial number of seats and join the governing coalition, without compromising my political interests too much. And indeed, 2021 was a pretty good election for Socialist Left. But they didn’t end up in the governing coalition, because they demanded that Labor have stronger commitments to fighting climate change. So the current minority government of Norway is between Labor and Center. Which means that even though I tried voting for a party with good LGBT+ policy proposals, nevertheless a number of major government positions in Norway are currently filled by people who have openly expressed transphobic views.
And indeed look at the news media. Hell, look at social media! Ain’t it just great to read a privately-owned newspaper, only to suddenly find oneself gazing at yet more transphobia? Even ostensibly publicly-owned news publications like NRK, they aren’t immune to transphobia, either. And social media, fediverse aside, has all these damned algorithms that keep showing me the most vitriolic shit. And this is the type of stuff that people form their opinions and worldviews from!
So I have “rights” under liberalism. The right to change my legal name and gender marker, the right to transitional healthcare, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the right to control my body and have a say in the government… But time and time again, all practical experience shows that having rights on paper does not mean anything unless the system in place allows them to mean something. I still consider myself to be an anarchist, but I have a lot of respect for Marxist-Leninists. Both anarchism and Marxism-Leninism understand that liberal “democracies”, “rights”, and “freedoms” are practically speaking worthless. Liberal rights only truly apply to the bourgeoisie, because it was the bourgeoisie who came up with these rights, as they secured their class interests in the transition out of feudalism. Liberalism was a progressive force at that time: it is a progressive force still today only insofar as it sows the seeds of a better permanent replacement, and it is a regressive force insofar as it sows the seeds of a worse temporary replacement.
It is always grassroots LGBT+ activism that brings forth LGBT+ rights. Always. Do not ascribe to liberalism what was the work of some of the most wretched of the Earth, working tirelessly to build a better world despite liberalism.
I honestly appreciate you sharing this. I read every word, and I agree that this is still obviously an imperfect system and there is a lot more work to be done. I sympathize with your struggle to find peace in your own body and mind, and I would never question your politics in that regard. I genuinely hope that you are able to transition and would personally support you if I could.
I want to make it clear that in no way do I consider the liberal status quo adequate, but I do see it as the best imperfect framework for progress we have at the moment. I also consider myself as more of a libertarian leftist/democratic socialist, but I strongly reject the idea that MLs are any ally to this cause in any way, and am far more sympathetic to liberal social justice ideals in comparison.
Again, I appreciate your attestation, and I wish you the best.
But the right to private property is as important as the right to your bodily autonomy! If you can own nothing then prepare to die losing your body and your mind. Imagine that, a communist alien that will take everything, even your mind from you!
The blob will have no mercy on us! Burn it to death with fire if we have to
Just so that you’re aware, that’s a bullshit definition of liberalism and no one is under any obligation to cede it to authoritarian liars and chumps. Any legitimate definition of liberalism has also to include a fundamental respect for basic human rights and the consent of the governed. Liberalism stands in antithesis to authoritarianism and that’s precisely why the hexbear bozos hate it so much.
How exactly do I revoke my consent?
So they’re not even consistent and you trot that out like we’re supposed to somehow respect it? Call it what it is; intellectual dishonesty. Those people are intellectual contortionists because they don’t actually have a coherent ideology that’s defensible in the light of basic human rights. It’s all authoritarian bullshit and the sooner you realize that, the better off you’ll be.
deleted by creator
I second your experience. Additionally, if you disrupt their echo chamber too much, they’ll delete your comments and ban you. This has happened repeatedly when trying to have civil discussions like this one. They justify it as preventing misinformation so I have yet to see a fair debate on there.
For anyone reading, @player2@lemmy.dbzer0.com was only banned from the hexbear.net chat board. They were banned for posting a link to a Kyiv independent article defending fascists in ukrane and got absolutely blown the fuck out by this reply.
I hope this fair and balanced coverage helps you understand what experiences this poster is referring to!
Very cheeky. Don’t fool yourself into believing that hexbear hosts fair discussions. I have always held discussions in good faith, in which I respect others and try to understand their perspectives. The hexbear debate style is classic bad faith discussions in which they try to dominate and coerce the other party into conceding. This is not the only time I’ve been censored on hexbear for presenting views that go against the groupthink.
In my offending comment I wasn’t defending fascists, I was pointing out that most Ukrainians are not Nazis.
That commenter only copy/pasted Russian propaganda and a tik-tok edit of Azov Battalion social media clips without context. Only 2.15% of Ukrainians voted for the National Corps Party and after the Russian invasion of Ukraine they have suspended their political activities to focus on armed defense of the country.
That 2021 UN item linked is cherry-picked. Russia has been trying to pass that item every year since 2005. It is a thinly-veiled pretext used by Russia to justify its brutal war and to legitimize their misinformation campaign. Ever since the Russian invasion of Ukraine this has been even more obvious, look at the most recent votes on this item to see that the whole world disagrees with Russia on this.
Russia is co-opting the despicable ideology of Nazism for politically motivated purposes that seek to excuse new violations and abuses of human rights. In fact, Russia has its own problems with far-right extremists and instead of suppressing them, Russia tacitly supports these groups to suppress dissent and to promote it’s own agenda.
2022
Why France and 51 other countries voted against UN resolution condemning Nazism
2023
EU Explanation of Vote – UN General Assembly 3rd Committee: Glorification of Nazism
Are you sad that you can’t delete my comments this time?
For anyone reading, the post that was removed and got this user banned from the hexbear.net chat community, posted in it’s entirety:
Their post was just a link to the article defending and justifying fascist imagery in ukrane.
The comment was directly in reply to the post do literally all ukranian soldiers wear fascist imagery?.
I personally believe it’s abhorrent to accept and defend the use of Nazi imagery and propaganda, but if a reader feels like it’s more complex and that people who go around whipping out the Bellamy salute are fine and they can be made the useful idiots of liberal democracy…
Whomst am I to point at the whole history of the 20th century and say “bro, just one more fascist coup, bro. This cia operation will be different bro!”?
Yup, I posted a link which directly answered the question in the post title and I looked forward to the explanations for why it is incorrect. Unfortunately I never got to participate in that discussion.
Do you realize that only 0.5% of Ukranian forces are part of the Azov Battalion? But they are the group with the most active social media presence, providing most of the images that hexbears throw around. No one else is endorsing Nazis, they’re all fighting to protect their homes and nation.
This Nazi scare tactic is a rather successful political-psychological tactic to justify the war among Russians who view the defeat of the Nazis as the high point in their history which they’d like to re-live.
Look, I can do it too. The Russian government has routinely collaborated with neo-Nazis in order to fight domestic opposition to Vladimir Putin, a policy called Managed Nationalism. The Russian Imperial Movement of neo-Nazi terrorists are allowed to operate and train militias within Russia as long as they don’t target Russians internally. The group worked with the Russian government on the annexation of Crimea, the Russo-Ukranian War, and the War in Donbas.
I personally believe it’s abhorrent to accept and defend the use of Nazi imagery and propaganda, therefore we should reject any actions by Russia. See? It goes both ways.
Which is why they said it’s not being discussed much over there.
They don’t want to defend it, but they can’t bring themselves to be critical of Russia either, so they just don’t speak up.
My thread on Hexbear
https://hexbear.net/post/1232126