@MagicShel I know this is hard to understand, but genocide affects our decision making, and some of us would even prefer our country to fall to complete ruin than be aparty to it. Never again isn’t “never again unless it would be politically expedient”
Do you understand what I mean? That there are lines that can never, ever be crossed?
Do you understand why I’d never be able to look in the mirror again after that?
@kool_newt I’m deontologically committed to not being personally aparty to genocide, and your commitment to a utilitarian calculus where genocide is a given, is exactly why I’ve made that choice.
If you think Trump is going to bring a halt to genocide you’re delusional. Vote Trump in and the genocide will continue or escalate. The GOP will escalate persecution of your countrymen and will further dismantle our democracy.
All the shit Trump did, locking kids in cages, rampant corruption, constant stream of lies, bungled foreign policy, stochastic terrorism. None of that crosses the line for you.
Or is it that you’re more about the symbolism of your vote than its real world effects?
Messy. Damnable. Pragmatism is hell, not cowardice. Trump is not a clay that can be worked on. He will go all in with what Israel is doing. With no alternative, if the lesser evil saves a life I’ll shake hands with it and kiss it on either cheek.
Good grief. Obviously acting in bad faith here rather than actually engaging and discussing. Hopefully few people in battleground states fall for all the people pushing this line on social media.
Fellow citizens, I don’t have to tell you genocide is disgusting. We need to be demanding of our reps and president to put a stop to the genocide here and Sudan both.
Hopefully nobody has to be told that the US has a long history of horrific foreign policy decisions (look up Kissinger or various coups we initiated or wars we started) that kill people by the millions either directly or indirectly. It’s up to us peons to fight this, fight the corruption that runs rampant, and fight to make our democracy work more for us than the Uber rich and powerful. Tale as old as time. It took decades to get us here and it will take decades to unfuck things.
But we are all fucked if if the GOP is allowed to implement Project 2025. It will be even more destructive to our institutions and democracy than the first Trump Presidency.
So, if we’re going to get all judgemental and shit on each other, your ‘conscience’ is a thinly veiled ‘burn it all down’ anarchy tendency that will create an actual genocide, rather than the imagined genocide in your own head.
First, let’s talk Israel vs. Hamas. Yeah. Israel is a bad guy here. But so is Hamas. They’d GLADLY mow each other down in a hail of gunfire and explosions if they thought they could get away with it. BOTH are looking for excuses to nuke each other. BOTH are looking for opportunities to create mass graves. There are no good guys here. Just villains and victims. And let’s get real. Both the Jews and the Palestinians are in the victim camp.
Biden is walking a tightrope over the abyss, trying to negotiate cease fires and freeing of both Israeli and Palestinian captives. He’s trying to minimise the war as much as he realistically can. Hamas is being backed by Iran with support from other Iranian proxies in the area, and of course we know Iran is part of the new Russo-Chinese axis that’s trying to form in opposition not only to the United States but also the basic notion that everyone has a right to exist, live their lives, and form their own governments according to their whims. So forcing Israel to let Hamas just waltz into their land, kill and abduct a fuckton of people, and strike a blow at Israel without consequence is playing into Iran and thus China and Russia’s hands.
Of course, your ‘conscience’ won’t bear examining these facts because that’d tell you that there’s an uncomfortable complexity in this world. So you’d rather let the Authoritarian here in the States win because the other guy isn’t hard enough on what you consider a bad guy. And when that shithead gets into office, every person he hurts is going to be on your shoulders, whether you acknowledge that or not. I just hope my wife is out of the US before it happens, given she’s a Black Bisexual Pagan Goth gal.
@jhymesba And here’s where you show you’re not just okay with genocide in some vague “Stop trump” capacity, but a full-on pro-genocide monster yourself.
Slaughtering 10 thousand children, after Hamas killed a bunch of concentration camp guards isn’t “self defense”.
We aren’t committing genocide. We oppose genocide in Ukraine, and we would allow it under Trump. The fact that you’d be fine letting this country burn doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. We can’t help anyone in that state. And a lot of us want to help.
@MagicShel We’re making it much much much much worse, providing direct financial and military aid to a country actively slaughtering tens of thousands and displacing millions to facilitate ethnic cleansing.
It’s not that trump wouldn’t be worse, just they supporting Biden is totally and completely unconscionable. And to do so sacrifices a piece of your soul.
Refusing to stand up to fascism is unconscionable to me.
Then the Democratic Party should consider starting. Instead, they’ve unfailingly pretended that fascists are honorable people interested in serious governance that we should just compromise with in order to get concessions.
Biden isn’t a genocidal monster and those words make you sound pretty unhinged. The fact that one of our close allies has been committing genocide is certainly a problem that we need to address but letting Trump win isn’t going to do Palestinians any favors.
@MagicShel that’s the difference in our understanding there.
You are what you do. And what he has done is send billions of dollars and two carrier groups to back up, by far, the biggest crime against humanity in the 21st century, already beating Iraq and blowing anything else out of the water.
Those carrier groups are there to prevent escalation into a war that would be terrible for everyone including the Palestinians. I can’t believe anyone needs that explained.
The dollars frankly I don’t understand, but I do know that if we want to be able to influence Israel we either need to have a carrot or a stick. Dollars are our soft power. I don’t know the secret agreements and back door deals that were made - I fully agree that from the outside it looks bad, and the government owes us explanations. Though you’ve already said you don’t care what the reasoning is or what those dollars bought, so I guess maybe you aren’t owed that explanation because what would it matter anyway? But the rest of us are owed an explanation of why we sent them a bunch of money. Maybe Israel threatened to carpet bomb the whole area if they didn’t get security guarantees, and maybe it’s worth a little of money to deescalate and give things a chance to calm down. Maybe not, my point is the reasoning matters at least to some of us.
What I do know is America has supported Israel and ignored the Palestinians for decades. This isn’t something Biden did any differently then any other American President. The difference is many democrats are actively and vocally supporting the Palestinians. And Rep. Talib has influence with this administration, but under Trump she would be powerless.
Biden isn’t perfect. America isn’t perfect. We have done awful things and we will again because that’s a fact of geopolitics. Hamas did an awful thing. Israel did many awful things. There are no good guys in this story. But I think we will do far fewer awful things under Biden than Trump. Plus, we need to show the GOP that cozying up to fascists will never help them. Maybe if we send Trump packing hard, they will get the message, but if Trump wins they never will and fascism will be an accepted part of the American political spectrum.
WW2 had far reaching impact decades later and I grew up in it’s shadow. Everything when I was growing up impressed upon me that there is nothing worse than fascism - Star Wars, Indiana Jones, even the Blues Brothers. I saw the effects it had on veterans, and I would spare the next generation the effects of it - particularly the effects of being the evil that we sacrificed so much to defeat. I’m not going to let Trump win while there is anything I can do about it and voting for Biden is about the least violent thing that can be done to stop him.
@MagicShel I know this is hard to understand, but genocide affects our decision making, and some of us would even prefer our country to fall to complete ruin than be aparty to it. Never again isn’t “never again unless it would be politically expedient”
Do you understand what I mean? That there are lines that can never, ever be crossed?
Do you understand why I’d never be able to look in the mirror again after that?
So you think that the default is no genocide? No genocide is not an option here. Our realistic options are:
A) genocide
B) genocide + fascism at home
Not choosing defaults to B
@kool_newt I’m deontologically committed to not being personally aparty to genocide, and your commitment to a utilitarian calculus where genocide is a given, is exactly why I’ve made that choice.
Ok, and I’m saying by not participating you’re effectively choosing not only genocide but fascism. As Rush says
“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice”
https://www.rush.com/songs/freewill/
@kool_newt oh I made my choice. I hope some day you will realize that you have too and what it means got you.
I’m secure in my knowledge that my ideology isn’t so radical I shoot myself in the foot.
@kool_newt I really wanted to let this go, but what the fuck is wrong with you that you think “I will not support genocide” is radical?
You toothless amoral cretin. Go back to your servile obsequence to whatever politicians your betters decide for you and leave me alone.
I’m trying to get a dunce to understand that no genocide isn’t the default when you forfeit your vote.
@kool_newt so you agree, a vote is an active choice that reflects on you as a human being?
If you think Trump is going to bring a halt to genocide you’re delusional. Vote Trump in and the genocide will continue or escalate. The GOP will escalate persecution of your countrymen and will further dismantle our democracy.
All the shit Trump did, locking kids in cages, rampant corruption, constant stream of lies, bungled foreign policy, stochastic terrorism. None of that crosses the line for you.
Or is it that you’re more about the symbolism of your vote than its real world effects?
@agent_flounder I’m not going to choose between two different far right genocidal monsters.
There’s no rhetorical game here. What you’re asking me to do is an evil my conscience won’t bear, and yours will because of your moral cowardice.
Messy. Damnable. Pragmatism is hell, not cowardice. Trump is not a clay that can be worked on. He will go all in with what Israel is doing. With no alternative, if the lesser evil saves a life I’ll shake hands with it and kiss it on either cheek.
Good grief. Obviously acting in bad faith here rather than actually engaging and discussing. Hopefully few people in battleground states fall for all the people pushing this line on social media.
Fellow citizens, I don’t have to tell you genocide is disgusting. We need to be demanding of our reps and president to put a stop to the genocide here and Sudan both.
Hopefully nobody has to be told that the US has a long history of horrific foreign policy decisions (look up Kissinger or various coups we initiated or wars we started) that kill people by the millions either directly or indirectly. It’s up to us peons to fight this, fight the corruption that runs rampant, and fight to make our democracy work more for us than the Uber rich and powerful. Tale as old as time. It took decades to get us here and it will take decades to unfuck things.
But we are all fucked if if the GOP is allowed to implement Project 2025. It will be even more destructive to our institutions and democracy than the first Trump Presidency.
So, if we’re going to get all judgemental and shit on each other, your ‘conscience’ is a thinly veiled ‘burn it all down’ anarchy tendency that will create an actual genocide, rather than the imagined genocide in your own head.
First, let’s talk Israel vs. Hamas. Yeah. Israel is a bad guy here. But so is Hamas. They’d GLADLY mow each other down in a hail of gunfire and explosions if they thought they could get away with it. BOTH are looking for excuses to nuke each other. BOTH are looking for opportunities to create mass graves. There are no good guys here. Just villains and victims. And let’s get real. Both the Jews and the Palestinians are in the victim camp.
Biden is walking a tightrope over the abyss, trying to negotiate cease fires and freeing of both Israeli and Palestinian captives. He’s trying to minimise the war as much as he realistically can. Hamas is being backed by Iran with support from other Iranian proxies in the area, and of course we know Iran is part of the new Russo-Chinese axis that’s trying to form in opposition not only to the United States but also the basic notion that everyone has a right to exist, live their lives, and form their own governments according to their whims. So forcing Israel to let Hamas just waltz into their land, kill and abduct a fuckton of people, and strike a blow at Israel without consequence is playing into Iran and thus China and Russia’s hands.
Of course, your ‘conscience’ won’t bear examining these facts because that’d tell you that there’s an uncomfortable complexity in this world. So you’d rather let the Authoritarian here in the States win because the other guy isn’t hard enough on what you consider a bad guy. And when that shithead gets into office, every person he hurts is going to be on your shoulders, whether you acknowledge that or not. I just hope my wife is out of the US before it happens, given she’s a Black Bisexual Pagan Goth gal.
@jhymesba And here’s where you show you’re not just okay with genocide in some vague “Stop trump” capacity, but a full-on pro-genocide monster yourself.
Slaughtering 10 thousand children, after Hamas killed a bunch of concentration camp guards isn’t “self defense”.
You’re just evil.
We aren’t committing genocide. We oppose genocide in Ukraine, and we would allow it under Trump. The fact that you’d be fine letting this country burn doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. We can’t help anyone in that state. And a lot of us want to help.
@MagicShel We’re making it much much much much worse, providing direct financial and military aid to a country actively slaughtering tens of thousands and displacing millions to facilitate ethnic cleansing.
It’s not that trump wouldn’t be worse, just they supporting Biden is totally and completely unconscionable. And to do so sacrifices a piece of your soul.
Refusing to stand up to fascism is unconscionable to me. My grandfather fought a war against it overseas and I’m not about to fail him here.
Then the Democratic Party should consider starting. Instead, they’ve unfailingly pretended that fascists are honorable people interested in serious governance that we should just compromise with in order to get concessions.
No disagreement.
@MagicShel voting for a genocidal monster isn’t standing up to fascism. There is a rot deep in your soul if you’ll let yourself fall that far.
Biden isn’t a genocidal monster and those words make you sound pretty unhinged. The fact that one of our close allies has been committing genocide is certainly a problem that we need to address but letting Trump win isn’t going to do Palestinians any favors.
@MagicShel that’s the difference in our understanding there.
You are what you do. And what he has done is send billions of dollars and two carrier groups to back up, by far, the biggest crime against humanity in the 21st century, already beating Iraq and blowing anything else out of the water.
There’s no excuse I’ll accept for that
Those carrier groups are there to prevent escalation into a war that would be terrible for everyone including the Palestinians. I can’t believe anyone needs that explained.
The dollars frankly I don’t understand, but I do know that if we want to be able to influence Israel we either need to have a carrot or a stick. Dollars are our soft power. I don’t know the secret agreements and back door deals that were made - I fully agree that from the outside it looks bad, and the government owes us explanations. Though you’ve already said you don’t care what the reasoning is or what those dollars bought, so I guess maybe you aren’t owed that explanation because what would it matter anyway? But the rest of us are owed an explanation of why we sent them a bunch of money. Maybe Israel threatened to carpet bomb the whole area if they didn’t get security guarantees, and maybe it’s worth a little of money to deescalate and give things a chance to calm down. Maybe not, my point is the reasoning matters at least to some of us.
What I do know is America has supported Israel and ignored the Palestinians for decades. This isn’t something Biden did any differently then any other American President. The difference is many democrats are actively and vocally supporting the Palestinians. And Rep. Talib has influence with this administration, but under Trump she would be powerless.
Biden isn’t perfect. America isn’t perfect. We have done awful things and we will again because that’s a fact of geopolitics. Hamas did an awful thing. Israel did many awful things. There are no good guys in this story. But I think we will do far fewer awful things under Biden than Trump. Plus, we need to show the GOP that cozying up to fascists will never help them. Maybe if we send Trump packing hard, they will get the message, but if Trump wins they never will and fascism will be an accepted part of the American political spectrum.
WW2 had far reaching impact decades later and I grew up in it’s shadow. Everything when I was growing up impressed upon me that there is nothing worse than fascism - Star Wars, Indiana Jones, even the Blues Brothers. I saw the effects it had on veterans, and I would spare the next generation the effects of it - particularly the effects of being the evil that we sacrificed so much to defeat. I’m not going to let Trump win while there is anything I can do about it and voting for Biden is about the least violent thing that can be done to stop him.