From about 2004-2008, it seemed like the political battle lines were being drawn around Christian fundamentalism and the (professed) moral standards of straight, white, suburban, and Republican attendees of America’s mega-churches. Obviously this was largely because GW Bush was a born-again Christian, and he gave religion an even stronger national platform than usual. He even claimed to talk with God, folks. The Iraq War was his “crusade,” Congress threw the brakes on everything to intervene in the Terry Schiavo case, and there was a widespread aversion to stem-cell research. Meanwhile, the anti-Bush libs fought on the culture-war terrain against religion, producing for example the book and documentary With God On Their Side (2004), the 2005 book American Theocracy, the 2006 documentary Jesus Camp, the 2008 Bill Maher movie Religiulous, etc. I remember concern at the time over Congresspeople’s apocalyptic beliefs that Israel must be protected for prophetic Biblical reasons. (This has re-emerged a little bit recently because of the genocide in Gaza).

After Bush left office, it seemed like this entire terrain of the culture war evaporated. No crazy fundamentalist in office, no concern over religiosity in America. So, I was wondering what this means in hindsight. Christian religious fundamentalism had its moment, but does that mean it only rose to prominence because annoying libs, media elites, and the chattering classes talked about it with respect to Bush? As in, they were snide about it, because haha, Bush is legitimately a dumb-ass? If so, where did the 2004-2008 left enter into this debate? Clearly they’re not supporting Bush, so they must’ve linked arms with libs to say that the Moral Majority-flavor of Christianity was bad.

But: what characterizes the left’s interpretation of religion now? Have Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Bill Maher, Cenk Uygur, and Reddit Atheists made the criticism of religion irredeemably cringe? Does the left not care about religion anymore as one of the fronts in the “war of position” against the bourgeoisie? If so, is that because things like Occupy and Sanders’ democratic socialism, which were nascent and unthinkable in 2004, steered lefty concerns towards a more material direction? Or, has the left viewed religion as incidental and co-optable in the struggle towards a classless society?

That’s a lot of stray questions, but I had been thinking about this for awhile and wanted to get the random thoughts down.

  • pooh [she/her, any]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    I think the internet atheist movement largely died because the grifters at the front of it (Dawkins, Maher, etc.) realized rightwingers are a much bigger cash cow and switched gears to the “War on Woke” to pad their own wallets.

  • buckykat [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    Christian religious fundamentalism didn’t go anywhere. Christian Zionists and their cultish apocalypse plot are still, and always have been, a major driver behind the US government’s unconditional support of Israel through all its violence, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Christians are behind much, if not all, of the recent wave of transphobic culture war bullshit with book bannings and women’s sports bans and all that kind of shit. Almost all elected members of the US government are Christian, with nationalist fundamentalists in key spots like the current Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson.

    Recently posted on Hexbear was a Chinese document titled Document No. 19 The Basic Viewpoint and Policy on the Religious Question during Our Country’s Socialist Period. The headline position is that “The basic policy the Party has adopted toward the religious question is that of respect for and protection of the freedom of religious belief.” but on a closer reading, we encounter a number of measures which would be recognized as a suppression of Christianity by Amerikkkan standards:

    At the same time, religion will not be permitted to meddle in the administrative or juridical affairs of state, nor to intervene in the schools or public education. It will be absolutely forbidden to force anyone, particularly people under eighteen years of age, to become a member of a church,

    Religion will not be permitted to recover in any way those special feudal privileges which have been abolished or to return to an exploitative and oppressive religious system. Nor will religion be permitted to make use in any way of religious pretexts to oppose the party’s leadership or the socialist system, or to destroy national or ethnic unity.

    Those [Religious professionals] who prove to be politically reliable, patriotic, and law-abiding, and who are well-versed in religious matters, can, upon examination and approval by the patriotic religious organizations, be allowed to perform religious duties. As for the rest, they should be provided with alternative means to earn a living.

    no religious organization or believer should propagate or preach religion outside places designated for religious services, nor propagate theism, nor hand out religious tracts or other religious reading matter which has not been approved for publication by the responsible government department.

    The fact that our Party proclaims and implements a policy of freedom of religious belief does not, of course, mean that Communist Party members can freely believe in religion. The policy of freedom of religious belief is directed toward the citizens of our country; it is not applicable to Party members. Unlike the average citizen, the Party member belongs to a Marxist political party, and there can be no doubt at all that s/he must be an atheist and not a theist. Our Party has clearly stated on many previous occasions: A Communist Party member cannot be a religious believer; s/he cannot take part in religious activities. Any member who persists in going against this proscription should be told to leave the Party.

    We must realize that although a considerable number of Communist Party members among these ethnic minorities loyally implement the Party line, do positive work for the Party, and obey its discipline, they cannot completely shake off all religious influence. Party organizations should in no way simply cast these Party members aside, but should patiently and meticulously carry out ideological work while taking measures to develop more fully their positive political activism, helping them gradually to acquire a dialectical and historical materialist worldview and to gradually shake off the fetters of a religious ideology.

    All those who spread fallacies to deceive and who cheat people of their money will, without exception, be severely punished according to the law.

    there are reactionary religious groups abroad, especially the imperialistic ones such as the Vatican and Protestant Foreign-mission societies, who strive to use all possible occasions to carry on their efforts at infiltration “to return to the China mainland.” Our policy is to actively develop friendly international religious contacts, but also to firmly resist infiltration by hostile foreign religious forces.

    An important task for the Party on the propaganda front is the use of Marxist philosophy to criticize idealism (which includes theism), and to educate the masses, especially the broad mass of young people, in a dialectical and historical materialist and scientific worldview. To do this, we must strengthen our propaganda in scientific and cultural knowledge as these relate to an understanding of natural phenomena, the evolution of society, and of human life, with its old age sickness, death, and ill and good fortune.

    Only after the gradual development of the Socialist, economic, cultural, scientific, and technological enterprise and of a socialist civilization with its own material and spiritual values, will the type of society and level of awareness that gave rise to the existence of religion gradually disappear. Such a great enterprise naturally cannot be accomplished within a short period of time, nor even within one, two or three generations. Only after a long period of history, after many generations have passed, and after the combined struggle of the broad masses of both believers and nonbelievers will this come about. At that time, the Chinese people, on Chinese soil, will have thoroughly rid themselves of all impoverishment, ignorance, and spiritual emptiness, and will have become a highly developed civilization of material and spiritual values, able to takes its place in the front ranks of mankind in the glorious world. At that time, the vast majority of our citizens will be able to deal with the world and our fellowmen from a conscious scientific viewpoint, and no longer have any need for recourse to an illusory world of gods to seek spiritual solace.

  • davel [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    I’ve been an atheist since over twenty years before New Atheism appeared.

    New Atheism was a shit show from the start, because it was a racist, Atlanticist, neocon product of the War on Terror. It was a horrifying disappointment for me, as someone always hoping for a significant atheist movement, to not even want to be associated with this one.
    Luke Savage/Jacobin: New Atheism, Old Empire

    People like Sam Harris have a morality not unlike the religious ones they claim to reject. Liberal atheist morality is no great improvement.
    Philosophy professor Hans-Georg Moeller: The Problem with Sam Harris’ “Morality”

  • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    I have a very different experience of the post-Bush years. While not necessarily as visible in the media, Evangelical Christianity continued to get more Republican and there was a strong evangelical-flavored rightward swing in downballot races as they successfully organized around local politics. Kim Davis and the religious opposition to gay marriage after the Supreme Court decision had their little field day.

    Meanwhile, New Atheism was fragmenting because the waning cultural dominance of Christianity meant that it was easier for non-crotchety old white guys to become more visible in the movement without worrying as much about backlash, leading to an ouster of sex pests and creeps that anticipated the MeToo trend by a few years and conflict between the increasingly crotchety old white guys, who began to embrace conservatism in reaction to the erosion of their positions of privilege and shifting mores. I think the conservative wing and its incredibly loud and obnoxious YouTubers is what leftists tend to label “reddit Atheism,” but it seems like folks are willing throw the term at anyone who voices a critique of religion without being willing to be polite about it. There are still plenty of people in movement Atheism who remain at least anticonservative in their politics and the ongoing marriage of Christianity (notably, not just evangelical Christianity) to the Republican party isn’t going anywhere, so it shouldn’t be controversial or cringe to continue to point out how serving capital is in the DNA of modern Christianity and the two systems have coevolved to be mutually reinforcing and is probably a good way to get liberal atheists on board with socialism.

  • PKMKII [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    My take is that the new atheist movement had a fundamental flaw in framing religion in too similar a manner as the religious themselves: that it was not a product of culture but rather an outside actor on culture. For the religious, it’s outside of culture because it comes from god and not man. For the new atheists, they tended to frame it as some nefarious cabal, the elite (although rarely elites in a class sense) injecting it into culture from the outside. Or, worse yet, talking about any religious belief as a sign of mental illness, like it could come from a defect. Smugness of this aside, the analysis of religion could never evolve beyond the logic facts and reasons arguments. Basically, if you’re going to evaluate why cultural movements happen from a materialist perspective, you’ve got to examine the material reasons for it.

    And if you do that, it becomes apparent that religion is more so a tool to justify particular regimes or movements. Like, it’s prettily obvious that the shift from Christianity as the divine justification for feudalism, to modern day evangelicals saying the Bible supports free markets and individualism, is a case of the changes in material interests of the ruling class being the cause and the changes in religious attitudes the effect. Not just the ruling classes either, liberation theology shows that the downtrodden can use it to buttress their rallying cry for radical change. And the fact that so many new atheists became right wing grifters or weirdo “cultural Christians” showed that rejecting the religious element didn’t automatically mean a rejection of the regressive culture associated with it (anyone remember elevatorgate?).

    On the flip side, the new atheist argument got weaker as well, as during the later Obama years and Trump presidency, there was a significant shift in the nature of the religious right. The old greatest generation evangelicals had a strict, god first country second, biblical literalism theology. It was very common for them to say that the U.S. is a fundamentally wicked, evil country. That generation is mostly dead now, and the new guard doesn’t care so much about biblical literalism, instead focusing on Christian nationalism. It’s a country first, god second approach, with the latter more a bludgeon to establish national supremacism rather that the central character. With that sort of argument, Christianity makes America the supreme culture, nitpicking about “askshully the way tides work in the Red Sea makes this passage from the Old Testament scientifically impossible” falls flat.

  • JohnBrownNote [comrade/them, des/pair]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    they overturned Roe pretty fucking recently, the christofascists are alive and well.

    the satanic temple is still on their shit. the atheist community of austin imploded in a fit of transphobia a few years ago and all the good people left. FFRF is probably still suing schools that force kids to pray, but they’re a bunch of libs.

    the good atheists are libs or actual leftists more primarily focused on queer and labor stuff these days, the bad ones are friends with up-yours-woke-moralists

  • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    I think a lot of the fundamentalist folks were old and died and the rest just moved on to the next reactionary political battle. There’s only so much you can squeeze out of a fight against teaching evolution in school. It was led by grifters and the money dried up. After Bush was Obama, so forced to play the “opposition” game (they can’t just outright support his continuation of the warmongering and islamophobia) they latched onto things like Birtherism and the Tea Party.

    I don’t think the US left is coherent enough to have a position on religion. I’ve never even heard an irl left critique of it aside from the regurgitation of some old Marx quotes. Probably better that we deemphasize it as an issue overall and instead focus on why certain religious movements are powerful and in opposition to liberation.