What is the reason that Europe colonised the world and not the other way round though?
Other countries had similar levels of ore in the ground and so on, so theoretically they could’ve advanced at the same time and decided to invade the rest of the world.
I definitely don’t put the answer down to whites being genetically smarter, and I don’t have a decided answer, but I read read a book by Yannis Varoufakis where he states that Europe’s invasion and colonisation of the world comes down to the need for surplus in colder countries.
Paraphrasing, in colder countries you need to stockpile grain and so on for the winter, while in warmer places there’s an abundance of food around you at all times, especially in times when populations weren’t so big.
The existence of the stockpiled grain then necessitated debt, as in winter time you’d feed people your grain at a cost - a cost that they could not pay at that time. To enforce the debt, you then need a bank of sorts with the backing of force to make sure the debt is repaid. Money and force begets more money and force, and eventually there becomes a high concentration of power in the hands of the few with great armies, with the mind to get more money through force.
From my own thoughts, geographically, your country might also have an advantage if you’re by the sea, because you would create a Naval force, a key instrument in the ability to go around the world plundering.
What would you give as an alternative answer? I don’t think this answer dictates that white people are inherently smarter back then or today.
They took over because they chose to go and take it instead of develop the ability domestically. That is they exploited their domestic capacity until they couldn’t, and then went to other places for more exploitation.
If your society wasn’t organized that way, where you could cultivate your environmental capacity in balance with your needs, through cooperation and diplomacy, then there was no need to conquer. Needing more stuff doesn’t make conquest inevitable.
But what’s the underlying cause of that in the first place? The society structure/organization surely correlates to environmental factors, not just people randomly selecting.
I know it’s frustrating to be endlessly epistemological, but why did Europe exceed their capacity and choose to go and take it elsewhere? What makes societies develop in ways of stewardship with the land rather than in ways of exploitation?
They weren’t the only ones to “win” they just happen to be the winners in our historical moment and in the context of our culture. Other civilizations did go pillage and conquer. Europe did it to themselves first. We just happen to be living in the moment where we all consider it the most important and consequential outcome. If humanity continues under capitalism, there will be many more and someday someone will wonder why the US won in the 20th century if not for them reacting to the dust bowl.
It’s not that Europe was uniquely equipped to be imperialist, it’s that they’re the biggest and most recent example (other than the US) that we’re familiar with. Also what makes them unique is European Industrial Capitalism, of which we’re the living most immediate result. Mayans didn’t have industrial capitalism. Neither did China or Japan. None of them even had capitalism.
Every society in history has their own contradictions. Every moment in history has a dominant contradiction. We’re used to analyzing the contradictions of capitalism, and that is indeed what Marx wrote about. So to understand European history in pre-capitalist times, you have to look the contradictions of the time which may or may not be the same as under capitalism. England vs France is a contradiction. Monarchy vs Subject. Lord vs Serf. These things drive what happened.
Contradiction 1: Humans vs environment. Humans depend on the environment and yet we alter it when we gather resources for production. If you cut down most of the forests in the UK, for example, this contradiction comes to the forefront of those who depend on lumber. Whether it’s a business, an artisan, a merchant, a monarchy that needs boats, or a peasant that needs a house.
Contradiction 2: Monarchy vs Subject. The monarchy needs its subjects for production and defense and legitimacy. If subjects are overexploited, they revolt, and this becomes the dominant contradiction.
Contradiction 3 to infinity: Monarchy vs Monarchy. Monarchies fight over territory and whatever ways that expresses itself in the culture (ie honor, religion, etc). At some point the two can no longer afford to keep fighting over a boarder that isn’t moving. There is no one left to conquer. So you have to develop the cultural idea of a treaty or truce. Then you team up and go conquer new territory because that may come with wealth that the other kingdom doesn’t have.
These contradictions are the underlying cause and which one specifically depends on the moment in history and the society in which the contradiction exists.
It’s important to stress that even peaceful societies have contradictions. They are unavoidable as they are the result of existence. Even indigenous societies had contradictions and they were also resolved by war. Even a perfectly communist society will have contradictions, it’s just that we will have resolved the contradictions of capitalism specifically.
What is the reason that Europe colonised the world and not the other way round though
Imperialism and capitalism
You can immediately discount statements like:
Europe’s invasion and colonisation of the world comes down to the need for surplus in colder countries.
Because lots of countries get cold. China was the the wealthiest and most powerful state (with India) for most of the last millenium but never colonised Australia for example.
Debt did not originate in Europe.
The problem with all these authors is that they are utterly unaware that Northern Europe was a backwater from the end of the Roman Empire to about 1750 AD
I don’t mean to be pedantic or defend the theory I talked about, but imperialism and capitalisms existence is surely precluded by a number of factors, and the fact that Europe reached the stage of capitalism/imperialism at the time they did is reflective of history that predates that period (obviously, I know). It’s that history that the theory attempts to decipher. It’s the why of, why didn’t China develop a capitalist system at that time?
Another poster mentioned Spain, which I think pokes a hole because it’s not cold there and they still were some of the earliest mercantile expeditionaries to South America.
No, debt didn’t originate in Europe (Varoufakis mentions the earliest debts on record are not European), but it was apparently on a wider scale in non-surplus countries because stockpiling a necessity like food in a place where food is scarce leads to more people entering debt to gain access to it.
‘The problem with all these authors is that they are utterly unaware that Northern Europe was a backwater from the end of the Roman Empire to about 1750 AD’ - What do you mean by this? What’s the implications of Europe being in the muck for that time period? Again, not trying to combat, just trying to understand.
What is the reason that Europe colonised the world and not the other way round though? Other countries had similar levels of ore in the ground and so on, so theoretically they could’ve advanced at the same time and decided to invade the rest of the world.
I definitely don’t put the answer down to whites being genetically smarter, and I don’t have a decided answer, but I read read a book by Yannis Varoufakis where he states that Europe’s invasion and colonisation of the world comes down to the need for surplus in colder countries.
Paraphrasing, in colder countries you need to stockpile grain and so on for the winter, while in warmer places there’s an abundance of food around you at all times, especially in times when populations weren’t so big.
The existence of the stockpiled grain then necessitated debt, as in winter time you’d feed people your grain at a cost - a cost that they could not pay at that time. To enforce the debt, you then need a bank of sorts with the backing of force to make sure the debt is repaid. Money and force begets more money and force, and eventually there becomes a high concentration of power in the hands of the few with great armies, with the mind to get more money through force.
From my own thoughts, geographically, your country might also have an advantage if you’re by the sea, because you would create a Naval force, a key instrument in the ability to go around the world plundering.
What would you give as an alternative answer? I don’t think this answer dictates that white people are inherently smarter back then or today.
They took over because they chose to go and take it instead of develop the ability domestically. That is they exploited their domestic capacity until they couldn’t, and then went to other places for more exploitation.
If your society wasn’t organized that way, where you could cultivate your environmental capacity in balance with your needs, through cooperation and diplomacy, then there was no need to conquer. Needing more stuff doesn’t make conquest inevitable.
But what’s the underlying cause of that in the first place? The society structure/organization surely correlates to environmental factors, not just people randomly selecting.
I know it’s frustrating to be endlessly epistemological, but why did Europe exceed their capacity and choose to go and take it elsewhere? What makes societies develop in ways of stewardship with the land rather than in ways of exploitation?
They weren’t the only ones to “win” they just happen to be the winners in our historical moment and in the context of our culture. Other civilizations did go pillage and conquer. Europe did it to themselves first. We just happen to be living in the moment where we all consider it the most important and consequential outcome. If humanity continues under capitalism, there will be many more and someday someone will wonder why the US won in the 20th century if not for them reacting to the dust bowl.
It’s not that Europe was uniquely equipped to be imperialist, it’s that they’re the biggest and most recent example (other than the US) that we’re familiar with. Also what makes them unique is European Industrial Capitalism, of which we’re the living most immediate result. Mayans didn’t have industrial capitalism. Neither did China or Japan. None of them even had capitalism.
Every society in history has their own contradictions. Every moment in history has a dominant contradiction. We’re used to analyzing the contradictions of capitalism, and that is indeed what Marx wrote about. So to understand European history in pre-capitalist times, you have to look the contradictions of the time which may or may not be the same as under capitalism. England vs France is a contradiction. Monarchy vs Subject. Lord vs Serf. These things drive what happened.
Contradiction 1: Humans vs environment. Humans depend on the environment and yet we alter it when we gather resources for production. If you cut down most of the forests in the UK, for example, this contradiction comes to the forefront of those who depend on lumber. Whether it’s a business, an artisan, a merchant, a monarchy that needs boats, or a peasant that needs a house.
Contradiction 2: Monarchy vs Subject. The monarchy needs its subjects for production and defense and legitimacy. If subjects are overexploited, they revolt, and this becomes the dominant contradiction.
Contradiction 3 to infinity: Monarchy vs Monarchy. Monarchies fight over territory and whatever ways that expresses itself in the culture (ie honor, religion, etc). At some point the two can no longer afford to keep fighting over a boarder that isn’t moving. There is no one left to conquer. So you have to develop the cultural idea of a treaty or truce. Then you team up and go conquer new territory because that may come with wealth that the other kingdom doesn’t have.
These contradictions are the underlying cause and which one specifically depends on the moment in history and the society in which the contradiction exists.
It’s important to stress that even peaceful societies have contradictions. They are unavoidable as they are the result of existence. Even indigenous societies had contradictions and they were also resolved by war. Even a perfectly communist society will have contradictions, it’s just that we will have resolved the contradictions of capitalism specifically.
mmm, thanks for the write up
yeah that does make sense
Imperialism and capitalism
You can immediately discount statements like:
Because lots of countries get cold. China was the the wealthiest and most powerful state (with India) for most of the last millenium but never colonised Australia for example.
Debt did not originate in Europe.
The problem with all these authors is that they are utterly unaware that Northern Europe was a backwater from the end of the Roman Empire to about 1750 AD
I don’t mean to be pedantic or defend the theory I talked about, but imperialism and capitalisms existence is surely precluded by a number of factors, and the fact that Europe reached the stage of capitalism/imperialism at the time they did is reflective of history that predates that period (obviously, I know). It’s that history that the theory attempts to decipher. It’s the why of, why didn’t China develop a capitalist system at that time?
Another poster mentioned Spain, which I think pokes a hole because it’s not cold there and they still were some of the earliest mercantile expeditionaries to South America.
No, debt didn’t originate in Europe (Varoufakis mentions the earliest debts on record are not European), but it was apparently on a wider scale in non-surplus countries because stockpiling a necessity like food in a place where food is scarce leads to more people entering debt to gain access to it.
‘The problem with all these authors is that they are utterly unaware that Northern Europe was a backwater from the end of the Roman Empire to about 1750 AD’ - What do you mean by this? What’s the implications of Europe being in the muck for that time period? Again, not trying to combat, just trying to understand.