Palestinian officials are accusing Israeli forces of carrying out “execution-style” killings in Gaza after the discovery of a mass grave containing at least 30 decomposing bodies. Some of the victims were blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs with zip ties. The bodies were found on the grounds of a school in Beit Lahia. Al Jazeera spoke to one man who helped discover the bodies.
Palestinian man: “Inside the schoolyard, we were shocked to find the dead bodies. Those are Palestinian civilians, blindfolded and handcuffed at the back. The dead bodies were kept inside black plastic bags.”
The discovery of the mass grave comes as the death toll in Gaza has topped 27,000. At least another 66,000 have been injured. The group Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor is now estimating that more than 25,000 Palestinian children have lost one or both parents in Gaza over the past four months.
Democracy Now have a left-wing bias, but are a factual source. . That said, I’m not here to defend them - nor do I have much interest in this particular article or event.
I was asking about the broader situation, action, policy and rhetoric. My views are based more on the history of the situation, the casualty counts, reporting from the likes of AP and Reuters, UN oversight, and significantly, the words of the Israeli leadership themselves. If nothing else, when a political leader tells you they want to exterminate a group they’ve been keeping in brutal conditions, then kills tens of thousands of them, I tend to believe them.
I’m not going to call you a genocide denier, but I will ask you - are you denying the genocide, and if so, on what grounds. If you have any thoughts on the differentiation from the Nazis of that era, I’d like to hear those too.
By this point honestly I don’t know. The quality of information that gets to the public, the bias and propaganda from both sides, even the mass bot account in lemmy.world that downvote everything not anti Israeli tells me there is alot of information missing.
Are we looking at individuals actions, groups of people, or a systematic process? The amount of suppressed information and incorrect reporting makes the latter appear to be all there is, but the reality is somewhere in the range.
Could it be a genocide - yes. Are there massive questions that need to be asked - absolutely. Have both sides committed crimes against humanity - very likely. Is it enough for media to be screaming genocide, make a biased article to inflame the masses without checking the facts - no.
What definition of genocide are you using? There’s no way to credibly dispute the fact that Israel’s actions comfortably meet both the UN and dictionary definitions.
Do you have any thoughts on my question about the meaningful differentiation between Novemberpogrome-era Nazi Germany and modern Israel?
UN definition
The key difference being we are seeing incidents of killing of civilians - either in conflict (expected) or execution (not expectedin conflict). What we aren’t seeing is a focused attempt at destroying the entire group - 10 here, mostly men, building destroyed there - or clear instructions to destroy the group. Quality reporting is showing individual incidents, mass propaganda and biased articles are calling it genocide.
No sorry, I cant comment on the difference as that wasn’t my area of study - mine was surface level Syria, Ukraine, Rwanda and War crime definitions, causes and responses. Id be limited to what the other poster said - one spoke German.
Here’s the full UN definition:
A major portion of the Palestinian territory has been flattened, and supplies to rebuild have been blocked, people can’t return, and are kept in concentration camp conditions. Israel have killed more civilians than the total number of Hamas members in existence, and are showing no signs of “progress” - let alone slowing down. There’s also the small fact that they funded the rise of Hamas over the secular moderates - seemingly to create the pretext for the genocide they’re now committing. Tens of thousands of dead isn’t isolated incidents - particularly when they’re just stating their genocidal intent. Here’s some relevant quotes… I can provide admission that they were funding Hamas too if you’d like.
Prime Minister Netanyahu
and
and
“Defence” minister Galant
Kallner…
Atbaryan…
Halevi…
If someone tells you they want to commit a genocide before killing tens of thousands of civilians in a few months while subjugating the entire population they’ve said they want to exterminate, I think it’s safe to believe them.
Here’s the thing about calling us deniers:
The claim that Jews are attempting extermination and are being helped by the globalist liberals is the oldest conspiracy theory on earth. It keeps popping up somewhere every 20 or so years, in some rightwing shithole nation, and it’s never true. It’s solely a justification to begin a campaign of antisemitic policies and violence.
Why should we believe the anti-Semites are telling the truth now?
Not that you are anti-Semitic yourself, but everybody else who previously made this claim was. How can we trust that you are different and telling the truth this time?
Israel != Jews. Lots of Jews are calling out Israel for, to all outward appearances, committing genocide. One of Israelis own judges on the recent IJC hearing with South Africa concurred with South Africa on two points IIRC. Not to mention that Israel failed to make their case completely. So there’s that.
Why is it that the people making the accusations of genocide don’t like it when it is pointed out that the people they are specifically accusing the children and grandchildren of Holocaust survivors?
You may be refusing to use the word Jew, you may be talking only of specific Jews (in truth the majority of Israeli/American Jews, who are the majority of Jews worldwide, but I digress), and you may refuse to bear mention of their relation to genocide themselvea, but this is what you mean, clearly, unless you can decontextualize the Israeli government from the people of Israel, as if it is something placed on them and not of them. You aren’t able to do that, I suspect.
I don’t mind it being pointed out. It’s especially damning because of that. You would think that they had learned better. But as is often the problem with humankind. We don’t ever really learn. We just retaliate when given the chance.
When I say Israel that means government. When I say Israeli people. That means Israeli people. Like when people say America. Typically means American government. When they say American people. That typically means the American people. Is that clear? Hopefully that clears it up.
And to be 1000% clear. It is the Israeli government, specifically likud In the knesset that are the problem. Plenty of the Israeli people are aghast at their own government’s actions.
Sure, plenty of people in Israel are aghast at their government’s actions, but they aren’t claiming genocide like you are.
So.again, we are dealing with you using Jews as a prop who can be trusted when they agree with you but but can’t when they disagree with you.
How is this not antisemitism in your mind?
A Jewish Holocaust and genocide scholar is.
Is this the consensus or have you just found somebody who agrees with you and are ignoring other voices?
As for your ICJ argument, did the Israeli judge concur genocide was taking place?
If so? It’s pretty disingenous to argue that Israeli officials can be trusted when they agree with you, but can’t when they disagree with you.
It doesn’t matter that they agree with me. The panel as a whole decided that it was likely genocide was taking place. It’s just especially damning when those from the home team have to reluctantly concur on a number of points.
Please shoe me a quotation from the panel where they state that this is “likely genocide.”
Is that your interpretation or the direct wording?
It did not decide that it was likely. The wording is very specific and deliberate: The preliminary ruling states that “at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention”. Notice how careful the wording is: “At least some”, “alleged”, “appear to be capable of falling within” - this kind of wording is being used to express a great deal of uncertainty.
Because there’s physical evidence. It’s one thing when it’s a conspiracy theory about a world government. It’s something else entirely when the IDF repeatedly kills unarmed people in the open with nothing else going on. It’s another thing entirely when they’re forcing Gazans to eat grass because they won’t allow them actual food.
It’s another thing entirely when it’s the government of Israel being protested and not some nebulous concept of Judaism.
Physical evidence is presented to a court and tried, it isn’t decontextualized videos on tiktok and news reports from the Qatar state’s english propaganda directed at leftists.
Do you understand the difference?
It isn’t blanket denials from the IDF when Reuters breaks it down with hard evidence, satellite photography, and eyewitness accounts from western Journalists.
You can try to discredit the accounts all you want but I’ve been in a war zone. I know what it’s supposed to look like and this ain’t it.
Please link me to Reuters accusing Israel of genocide and the evidence they are using.
I’m still waiting for that link, FYI.
A neutral news outlet like Reuters generally won’t apply characterisations like “genocide” themselves - they’ll report on the ICJ ruling.
In the meantime, we can apply the UN definition the ICJ uses, or the dictionary definition for ourselves. That makes things very clear.
If Reuters is that person’s source for his claims of genocide yet Reuters said no such thing, Reuters is not his source.
This is the problem I having. You guys are throwing all these respected names around to make your case, but when asked for the source, it’s always “well of course they don’t actually say genocide but all the reporting in totality equals genocide.”
So sure, how about you post here the ICJ definition of genocide and explain how the Oct. 7 war meets the definition.
Why not just take the Israeli leadership at their word and compare their actions to either the UN or dictionary definition of genocide? It’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t deny that a genocide was attempted on 10/7. I also believe that Israel has the right to ensure it’s security, especially if the Palestinian public refuses to do so themselves. You might say “But Palestinians have no responsibility to do so” and you’d be wrong. 80 years of terrorism against the Israeli people means that Palestinians have a responsibility to stop the violence.
Until they do, Israel must take actions to defend itself. If you have suggestions for how this should be done, I’m all ears.
Are Palestinians entitled to defend themselves?
Are Jews?
Of course, but this isn’t that. This is about stealing more land and ethnically cleansing it to make way for settlers. You aren’t doing self defense on stolen land.
No, the war started on Oct. 7th. The war is in response to terrorism on the part of Hamas.
You’re just pulling a DARVO here.
You can’t just pick a date and ignore decades of history before that because it doesn’t support your case. The latest one could argue this conflict started was 1948, but Zionist terrorists had been operating in Palestine for decades at that point.
So jews returning to their homeland is itself what justifies oct. 7?
Yeah, that’s pure antisemitism.
It’s not that Jews immigrated to their “homeland”, it’s that they are ethnically cleansing the people who have called that land home for thousands of years. Palestine could have been a modern pluralistic nation that included Jews, but instead zionists chose genocide to try and make a country for only Jewish people. That’s why this conflict is where it is today, Palestinians want some of their land back that was stolen in living memory (as opposed to 2000 years ago), but Israel really wants beachside condos and there are people they consider sub-human in their way.
Is this defending themselves?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Yeah, that’s a list of Palestinians attacking invaders/colonizers in Palestine. Palestinians defending themselves in Palestine is unambiguously self defense. The tactics aren’t preferable, but I’m in no position to tell any person suffering under a brutal occupation that their fight for self determination is in some way invalid.
Cool, you say that Israel is colonizers and Palestine is defending themselves.
I’ll say that Gazans are terrorists and Israel is ensuring it’s security. Israelis defending themselves after an invasion of their country is unambiguously self-defense. Their tactics aren’t preferable, but I’m in no position to tell someone who is under attack how to defend themselves.
Unfortunately none of this solves problems for actual civilians in the conflict.
You got your sides mixed up, it’s been 80 years of terrorism, subjugation, blockades, land grabs, against the Palestinian people, and the Palestinians have a right to ensure their security. Have you considered why Israel needs to ‘defend itself’? Why do you think Palestinian people have been fighting for 80 years?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Here’s the problem… For the past several decades or so, Israel has blockaded Gaza and the West Bank from getting any kind of support from the outside.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
They don’t have the material or the personnel to do ANYTHING about the violence being enacted against the Israelis and that’s BY THE DESIGN of the Israelis.
So what do you expect the Palestinians to do? Israeli policies have been crushing them for decades, they don’t have the capacity to throw out Hamas because Israel actively prevents them from having the capacity. Sooo? Obtain weapons illegally? Now in the eyes of Israel they ARE Hamas and they get attacked too.
It gets even worse, because it means they don’t have great access to information either.
There was a video soon after Oct 7 that showed Palestinians celebrating in the streets. They hadn’t been told about the civilian deaths or kidnappings though, only that a prison had been liberated. And that context wasn’t shown alongside their celebrations when Israelis saw it.
The suppression of information has led to misunderstandings that perpetuate the hate and the war. Just as Netanyahu wants, I suspect.
Except Gaza shares a border with Egypt that Israel was not controlling before the Oct. 7 war and I’m not sure if they are controlling it now.
Israel is preventing Palestinians from overthrowing Hamas? Why would that be true and what evidence of that claim do you have?
You can’t defend people and strip them of all agency at the same time.
Israel blocks all materials that the Palestinians would need to throw out Hamas and they have been doing that for decades.
So, again, what do you expect the Palestinians to do?
So to the best of your knowledge, there has not been a single uprising attempt against Hamas, and the Jews in Israel are to blame?
Wow.
No, again, Israel has COMPLETELY blockaded Gaza.
The Palestinians don’t have anything with which to even attempt to throw out Hamas.
So what would you have them do? What do you think Israel’s reaction would be if they tried to smuggle weapons in through the blockade?
Again, this is all Israel’s design. They could lift the blockade today. They could normalize relations with the Palestinians today. They won’t, because what they really want is to choke them out and steal their land. They won’t be satisfied with less.
https://newrepublic.com/post/178243/benjamin-netanyahu-literally-says-from-the-river-to-the-sea
“According to other translations, Netanyahu said that Israel “must have security control over the entire territory west of the Jordan River,””
So your argument is essentially that the Jews are to blame for terrorist actions against them and the terrorists themselves should not be held accountable because the Jews won’t allow it…
I’m not sure if you personally are an antisemite but the people telling you this nonsense clearly are and I think you should start considering how these arguments come across to people who aren’t antisemites.
No, I’m saying Israel is to blame for the Palestinians inability to do anything about Hamas.
If you want Hamas gone, stop treating Palestinians like terrorists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Israel fully withdrew from Gaza and displaced Israelis that had been living in Gaza since the 1940s because of two decades of terror bombings of busses in Israel.
I vehemently oppose the use of violence to achieve political goals in all forms.
I would suggest educating yourself on this conflict and the historical reasons for the state of the conflict today.
Nobody cares what happened in the 1940s, we’re talking about the abuses heaped on Gaza within living memory.
Unfortunate to not care about Israeli civilians being displaced, how am I supposed to care about Palestinians being displaced then?
When the Israeli civilians are engaging in UN declared illegal occupations, it’s hard to have sympathy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements#:~:text=Since the occupation of the,validity and pose a serious
Pretty sure it’s illegal to slaughter thousands of civilians on 10/7. Hard to have sympathy.
Oh, it absolutely is, I’m not justifying murdering people.
Kicking people out of settlements they are occupying illegally because they have a delusional belief that God gave it to them? No sympathy there.
TL:DR: Israel isn’t defending itself by committing a genocide against a population they’ve subjugated.
There are a series of issues with this…
Genocide isn’t an act of defence - it’s an attempt to completely exterminate a group of people, and is the greatest act of aggression a group could possibly commit.
The response we’re seeing is in no way proportionate, and causing a completely unacceptable level of civilian casualties (10k+ children alone in response to 1,200 total killed according to Israeli counts).
Israel have killed more Palestinians than the total number of Hamas members in existence with zero indication of progress, and no sign of stopping.
Israel have maintained Palestine in conditions described by the UN as an open air concentration camp, and have placed severe apartheid restrictions on Palestinians for years.
Israel have killed orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas have killed Israelis.
Israel funded the rise of Hamas (who were no less violent then) over the secular moderates - as confirmed by both IDF leadership at the time she Arafat. I see no reason for them to do this other than to manufacture pretext for the genocide while maintaining US support.
Palestinians seem to have a lot more to “defend themselves” against - between the numbers killed and displaced and the very restrictive living conditions they’re subjected to.
Israeli leadership have said pretty plainly and repeatedly that they intend to exterminate Palestinians - if all Palestinians were to lay down arms and submit to the apartheid conditions, movement restrictions, and conditions we’ve seen over the past decade, the well funded nuclear power with modern military simply won’t stop.
What makes Israel’s actions self-defence while Hamas’s lesser actions are not?
No legitimate person is accusing Israel of extermination. My impression is most of you are accusing Israel of “cultural genocide” and not actual extermination. Am I wrong on that?
A disproprortionate response in war is not in the definition of genocide. Is your argument that Israel is committing war crimes or that they are specifically doing genocide, and are you aware that there is a legal difference?
How do you define progress when fighting a terrorist cell? Are you using the same rubric that the IDF is or are you defining progress differently? This point feels like it weakens your argument.
I would need to see the direct quote you reference. And seeing that Israel left Gaza in 2005, apartheid is a dishonest word to use in reference here. West Bank, sure, but I believe the argument made is that Israelis are genociding Gaza’s, not those currently in.the West Bank. If the rhetoric has changed, please inform me.
Point 5 is just point 2 repeated. Please reference that.
Hamas began as a human rights charity. Can you establish that Israel paid Hamas to attack Israel or is that conjecture? Are you also claiming that it’s the Israeli’s who support Hamas and not the Palestinian people? If so, doesn’t it make sense for the Palestinians to turn over the Israeli sleeper agents who govern them to the international courts as evidence of genocide? As we can see, this point, if what you are trying to make, is easily disproven by the fact that the Palestinians are not bringing down Hamas themselves.
Having a lot to work against doesn’t make you the victim of genocide. This point brings nothing to your argumentt.
Please provide the direct quotations, not reporting of the quotations. This point you might be correct on, but the ones I have seen were grossly mistranslated and the correct translations were clearly in reference to Hamas fighters, not all Palestinians.
I didn’t write this to attack, but because I think your post deserved a response instead of possibly getting lost.
I disagree with point 2, or maybe it needs to be clarified?
A disproportionate response is a war crime (not genocide) but deaths each side isn’t the measure of proportionality - neither is strength, tech, economic strength.
Proportionality is using only as much force as necessary to eliminate the threat and minimize civilian casualties. I haven’t seen the intel reports of the attacks on civilian structures that hamas are using, but proportional response does need to be called into question.
I think everybody is willing to have a conversation on the imbalance of power and whether Israel can show more restraint.
The people screaming genocide aren’t allowing us to have that conversation unless it is on their terms.
I would call this genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
I’m sure you’d call Hamas’s actions a genocide, but based on what definition or metric?
No differences between Israel and the Nazis?
No difference between Israel’s self-defence and Hamas’s attacks?
Godwin’s law states that you have lost the argument/credibility.
Your inability to point to a meaningful distinction between those you’re supporting and literal Nazis or provide a consistent definition of genocide (because you can’t manufacture one that describes Hamas without admitting Israel is committing one) says far more than Godwin’s law ever will.
Your inability to form any argument besides a comparison to Nazis says far more about your reasons for advocating for genocide of Israelis.
Still waiting on that definition of genocide or a meaningful distinction from the Nazis.
Meanwhile, I don’t need to make an argument - I’ll just let the Israeli leadership do that for me…
Prime Minister Netanyahu
and
and
“Defence” minister Galant
Kallner…
Atbaryan…
Halevi…