Thanks for the context on Tibet. The analogy helped, too, since I have a lot more familiarity with events related to e.g., the destruction of Confederate statues. I’ll have to go back and re-read the Tropes mention and so on but it makes sense to me now why mentioning the destruction of that culture without a disclaimer would be problematic / explicitly bigoted (still not sure “racist” is the right term but even if so my opposition would be solely pedantic and I’m not trying to police word choices like that).

FLG

I’ll be honest re the FLG - reading up on this yesterday was the first time I’d ever even heard of them. They’re not a very likable group.

Given what you’ve shared, it makes sense to me that their claims shouldn’t be taken at face value. That said, if people who haven’t harmed anyone are being imprisoned solely because of their beliefs, regardless of how poorly informed those beliefs are - which this New York Times article discusses - then it’s fair to criticize the state for those actions.

I still don’t see how it isn’t ignorant to hold the belief that “unironically mentioning the FLG means you’re a racist white edgelord,” when referring to someone talking about the subject matter of a show that has that subject matter, and given that as far as I can tell the imprisonment of those people is not even contested by the state.

China Uncensored is directly affiliated with Falun Gong.

That seems like pretty important context for the TvTropes article, and its omission is suspicious.

Organ harvesting

If you actually read that article, the evidence presented is laughable.

I didn’t read the whole article, though I read the counterpoints section in its entirety. From what I did read, the lines you cited were the least compelling. Importantly, there’s an entire “Evidence” section; the bit you quoted was from the section on Verdicts and Reporting.

Specifically, the following all have more merit IMO:

1. The ”Verdict by the China Tribunal” subsection
2. The rapid increase in organ transplants without attributable causes, with its timing aligned with the imprisonment of FLG practitioners.
3. Extremely low wait times for organ transplant recipients, which suggest something suspicious is going on.
4. There were multiple witnesses who described medical testing that strongly suggest those tests were intended to assess the health of organs rather than the person.
5. Posing as prospective transplant recipients or brokers, investigators called hospitals, prisons, etc., and were told they had FLG organs that could be available for transplant.
6. In Israel, several men involved in mediating organ transplants of Chinese prisoners were arrested

You’re right that none of this is definitive, especially given the bias of many of the sources, but as a whole it is clear that something other than the official account is or was happening. I’m not fully convinced one way or the other, but the arguments were compelling enough for several major governments to speak out against it and pass laws in response. Calling the evidence laughable feels shortsighted.

I’ve also been unable to find rebuttals to the specific evidence. As a contrast, the World Trade Center “jet fuel can’t melt steel beams so it must have been an inside job” conspiracy theories prompted government investigations and a ton of debunking articles that I can easily find via a web search. When I try to find debunkings of this, the best I can find is articles like this one, in which Chinese government officials admit that they used to harvest organs from prisoners, but state that they don’t anymore.

With what I’ve read so far, to believe that this is made up, I basically would have to say that the evidence itself was fabricated and ignore the discrepancies in the data, assuming that there’s some reasonable explanation for them but not seeking it out. I’m not interested in engaging in willful ignorance like that.

I can see why someone might be annoyed at an assertion of this as a fact, but to call such an assertion racist / white supremacist is nonsensical at best.

In other words, nobody’s actually collected any real evidence and it’s all just speculation and inference. It’s made up.

Inference involves making a conclusion by taking evidence and applying logic and reasoning. Not sure why you think that’s “made up.”

Many of the people pushing the narrative have incentive to lie about China.

This seems to be the case, but unfortunately the opposite - that those rebutting the narrative have incentive to lie for China - also seems to be true.

Thanks again for all the extra info/context you’ve shared and for helping me to better understand this.

—-

Quotes below are from the wikipedia article - specifically the numbered list of evidence I mentioned above.

Tribunal:

In June 2019, the tribunal published their final judgment which unanimously concluded that crimes against humanity had been committed.[67] The tribunal’s report said “forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale and … Falun Gong practitioners have been one—and probably the main—source of organ supply.”[67] The tribunal estimated between 60,000 and 90,000 transplant operations occurred per year, much more than the official figures of 10,000 from the Chinese government.[1][68] The chair of the tribunal said “there is no evidence of the practice having been stopped and the tribunal is satisfied that it is continuing.”[68]

Wait times:

Researchers and medical professionals have expressed concern about the implications of the short organ transplant wait times offered by Chinese hospitals. Specifically, they say these wait times are indicative of a pool of living donors whose organs can be removed on demand.[35] This is because organs must be transplanted immediately after death, or must be taken from a living donor (kidneys must be transplanted within 24–48 hours; livers within 12 hours, and hearts within 8 hours).[90]

Medical testing:

One man, Wang Xiaohua, was imprisoned in a labor camp in Yunnan in 2001 when he and twenty other Falun Gong detainees were taken to a hospital. They had large quantities of blood drawn, in addition to urine samples, abdominal x-rays, and electrocardiogram. Hospital staff did not tend to physical injuries they had suffered in custody. This pattern was repeated in several other interviews.

Hospital / prison / detention center statements:

In one such call to a police detention center in Mishan city, an official said that they had five to eight Falun Gong practitioners under the age of 40 who were potential organ suppliers. When asked for details on the background of these individuals, the official indicated that they were male Falun Gong prisoners from rural areas.[102]

Israel arrests:

Israeli authorities arrested several men involved in mediating transplants of Chinese prisoners’ organs for Israelis. One of the men had stated in an undercover interview that the organs came from “people who oppose the regime, those sentenced to death and from prisoners of the Falun Gong.”[138]

It’s pretty obvious that you’re just another of CIA Agent Cayde’s accounts, so allow me to repeat myself:

I’m not interested in talking to a CIA plant, so fuck off.

I’m not arguing in good faith because I’ve shared where I got my information from and because I asked you to provide a source backing up your own claims? Yeah, that tracks /s

I guess I need to fucking spell it out for you simpletons. The show and tv tropes argue that China is a totalitarian dictatorship and that Chinese people are too stupid, greedy, or evil to understand it, or are all brainwashed zombies with no free will, intelligence, human spirit, drive or individuality, nevermind the fact that totalitarianism is an idea propogated by neoliberals to falsely equivocate socialism with fascism, and that brainwashing itself is a racist caricature of a very real but popularly dramatized process applied in completely different contexts.

The TV Tropes page endorses almost all of the tropes of the show as being real, despite them being based on racism, lies, and debunked nonsense, such as the lie that China is imprisoning 10 trillion Ughyurs, despite the mountain of evidence contrary, like the fact that multiple organizations of Arabic/Islamic majority countries decry these allegations and support China’s alternate means of fighting terrorism by educating, deradicalizing and setting up therapeutic training centers and schools, enshrining the rights of Ughyur muslims and other ethnic and cultural minorities into law, documenting the experiences off Ughyur muslims that were saved by anti-poverty and anti-terrorism campaigns, and how most of these facilities are now shut down because China is conquering the issue of separatism peacefully rather than bombing civilians, China is hosting traditional Ughyur muslim ceremonies and festivities, protecting cultural artifacts in museums and textbooks, seeking approval and cooperation with Ughyur elders, mandating that Ughyur officials be part of official political bodies, and up until recently being very lax about child number limits for the Xinjiang Ughyur Autonomous Region, and the fact that the original sources for these genocide claims all date back to a sham study conducted by U.S. and Australian-financed “researchers” that only interviewed 64 people with little regard to methodology or sample size, using very leading questions, all relying on completely false allegations from a known Nazi-sympathizing German anti-semite christofascist named Adrian Zenz, and right-wing cults like Falun Gong and the ETIM that were funded by the exact same CIA cutouts that financed Ughyur muslim separatist supremacist terrorist groups all the way back to the 1960’s that eventually joined up with the Taliban and attacked China in the 1980’s-early 2010’s.

I’m sure you’ll dismiss all of this as propaganda, even though even the U.S. government publically admitted it couldn’t find enough actual proof to confirm China of having Ughyur concentration camps, instead of deradicalization and vocational and alcohol and drug abuse rehabilitation centers.

Jesus fucking christ, you goddamn racist pricks never call the Chinese government by it’s proper name, and it arguably pisses me off more than your racism at this point, it’s called the CPC, not CCP. The CCP hasn’t existed for decades. Despite the Chinese translated name, in English it’s called the CPC. No amount of wishy-washy dick stroking will make the CPC the CCP.

A literal CCP shill? As opposed to a figurative one?

Finally, go fuck yourself. Even if I wasn’t supportive of the CPC, you’re 99 percent a white supremacist neoliberal capitalist bootlicker that thinks you better than the 1.4 billion Chinese citizens that overwhelmingly support their government and state of affairs, which is shown in numerous scientific studies and polls of different sources, all reaching similar approval ratings, so “they are all cowards or evil or brainwashed zombies” can be ruled out. Fundamentally wanting the CPC to be overthrown is racist, given that you want to dismantle what the over 90-ish percent of Chinese citizens like and support. But putting that argument aside, I don’t shill for anyone. Your brain is rotted from being spoonfed by capitalist white supremacist neoliberal media all your life. You claim to be anti-capitalist in your words, yet you don’t have an ounce of humility or reflection in your actions or attitude. You aren’t “calling out” anyway, you are being a racist capitalist douchebag.

China is light years ahead of other neighboring countries in regards to trans rights, you would know that if instead of believing whatever Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, New York Times, Breitbart, the Drudge Report tell you to think.

people watering down the terms Nazi and fascist.

Literal nazi talking point. Apologize now or block & report. I won’t tolerate that shit and neither will the mods.