The vast majority of liberals who ever comment posts on lemmygrad and hexbear are of the insufferable variety while the ones who are willing to have actual conversations are a very silent faction that we see verry rarely. I think we should find a way to encourage the latter to engage more with us while keeping out the smuglords.
Of course, keeping out smuglords all the while making sure that as much good faith peoples see us could prove difficult and would demand to have a strict management to make it possible given the current conditions off the lemmyverse but I think it would be worth it.
One way I think we could go about it could be to make a pined megathread every week/month depending on what is the most convenient that would be meant specifically for curious liberals to come talk to us. It should have strict healthy debate rules to keep smuglords out and curb excesses from those of us who tend to be too harsh toward even good faith lib, the subjects doesn’t need to be strictly political, in fact I believe that more casual conversation and memes should be encouraged to break with the more serious talk from time to time, we should also encourage varying conversation topics with more economics and political theory as our conversation with liberals tend to center around history and actuality and barely touch on other topics, which I think is kind of a shame.
Of course that’s just an idea I’m throwing out there and I would like everyone to give opinions and ideas below.
Edit: By “good faith peoples” I was mostly thinking of the apolitical peoples, the ones who aren’t really invested in politics, I worded that a bit badly.
I don’t think the occasional open megathread would hurt but focusing too much effort on trying to reach liberals is a tactical mistake. There is a much broader mass of people out there who are not liberal, most of them are just apolitical or only very superficially political in one direction or the other, and these are the people who we should be trying to reach first, not groups that are already ideologically hardened, whether liberal or conservative. It is more difficult to break through already established barriers than to lay down foundations on empty or mostly empty land. In order to reach these people you need to emphasize shared material interests, and preferably do so outside of the kind of online milieu which tends to disproportionately attract already politicized individuals as is the case for this platform.
Not wrong, but a catch-all “disagree and and want a proper discussion” would solve the “liberal only” complaint. In my experience chuds are easier to convert, but a chud thread would be a miserable idea.
Either way, if it had a specific comm with ban happy mods it might not be a bad thing.
chuds are easier to convert, but a chud thread would be a miserable idea
I completely agree on both counts.
Kinda catch 22 in a way, if we walk through the brambles and suffer countless stinging thorn we might win them over….might… and it fucking sucks
“liberal” here is an unmarked term that thereby refers to both a broad group and a specific subset of it, like how “man” can mean both “humans generally” and “males specifically”. Furthermore, most “apolitical” people are just casual liberals rather than dedicated ones, because we live in a neoliberal society.
There is a much broader mass of people out there who are not liberal, most of them are just apolitical or only very superficially political in one direction or the other
I was mostly thinking of those peoples, my bad if that wasn’t clear.
There is a much broader mass of people out there who are not liberal, most of them are just apolitical or only very superficially political in one direction or the other
Reaching out to these people is good, too, but I’m not sold that they’re easier/more worthwhile to bring around than more committed libs (let’s define that as regular Democratic Party voters):
- As @GarbageShoot@hexbear.net pointed out, a lot of “apolitical” people are still pretty dug in on their priors, they just… aren’t that interested in politics. Maybe that changes with exposure to leftist politics, but maybe the effort we put in just gets us (more) armchair revolutionaries. A lot of more committed libs have done real-world stuff like phonebanking, canvassing, staffing events, maybe even some protesting.
- A lasting change to your worldview usually requires significant learning, which takes time and attention. Committed libs already set aside time and attention for politics; it’s a matter of getting them to read/watch something different in the time they already spend on politics, not carve out new time to read/watch something they might not be interested in at all.
- As long as you’re somewhat honest with yourself – which is a prerequisite for being persuadable – being dug in on a position can backfire if it’s a bad one. If I’m a lib who’s genuinely horrified at how the U.S. handles its southern border, leftists pointing out how Obama and Biden have worsened the situation is not something I’ll dismiss out of hand. It’ll stick with me. If I’m used to occasionally hearing about bad stuff but resigned to being apolitical, how is hearing about one more bad thing going to change that?
- Bernie based his campaigns around turning out apolitical people and the left wing of committed Dems; there was some success there, but not enough. And the task there was only getting apolitical folks to do the easiest form of political participation: voting for a popular candidate.
Hey, i agree. And i would say that i was one of those people when i joined lemmy.
I was apolitical because i was clueless but leaned towards liberal only because that was the default political sentiment around me. I hope that makes sense, I’m not quite sure how to describe it. It’s like i knew something was very wrong with society but honestly couldn’t pinpoint anything.
I left reddit and came to lemmy because i was on the piracy sub and the top mod recommended everyone move to lemmy.
And that’s kind of how i found hexbear first, and then lemmygrad. Some people complained about hexbear and i thought let me check out what they’re complaining about. I went through a few posts and i was honestly thunderstruck. Here are people that feel exactly the way i feel and can actually explain to me why I’m feeling that way and exactly what’s wrong with everything around us.
I won’t lie, it did take a lot of reading of posts to shed myself of the default liberal way of looking at things.
So that’s my perspective of coming from a liberal way of thinking. You guys do good work. I know i have a long way to go but i just started reading the communist manifesto and one of Noam Chomky’s books. And my copy of “The east is still red” is on it’s way to me. So you did make a difference, to me at least.
Also @ExotiqueMatter, you might not remember a comment you made to me a few months ago i think, it might not have seemed like much but it sort of made me happy and encouraged lol. Thanks for that.
Glad to have you here. Since you’re already reading some books I’d also recommend Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti.
Thanks for the recommendation! I’ve always been more of a book person so the recommendation is highly appreciated.
Glad to have you here, comrade
Thanks, happy to be here :)
Some people complained about hexbear and i thought let me check out what they’re complaining about. I went through a few posts and i was honestly thunderstruck. Here are people that feel exactly the way i feel and can actually explain to me why I’m feeling that way and exactly what’s wrong with everything around us.
Exactly my experience with the old Chapo Trap House subreddit
Which comment was that btw?
https://lemmy.ml/comment/7562660
I think it’s this comment thread. I was very frustrated at the time because of being called tankie because i gave a different viewpoint.
I’d be down with trying out a megathread for respectful discourse (meaning hostility wouldn’t be tolerated from anyone), although always having three pinned threads might be a bit excessive
That would be awesome to have something like that because random comment sections can be really chaotic.
I would encourage a thread that is framed as educational, rather than framed as “debate” or “discourse.” Along the lines of, “You have a question you’ve been wanting to ask, ask it and those with more understanding will try to answer and walk you through the reasoning/sources/etc.” If it’s framed as debate or discourse, my concern would be that liberals would just use it as a platform to debate what shouldn’t be platformed in the first place. Hope that makes sense. Seems like kind of a fine line to walk. It’s important to get through to people, but also, some people could just view it as an intellectual challenge instead of serious stakes and muddy the waters.
yes, the thread would be intended for learning, and we may have to require citations for political assertions
@ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml @nephs@lemmygrad.ml @amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml @m5rki5n@lemmygrad.ml: I’ve made a new thread (and accompanying community) for this, currently pinned to Local
should we promote the thread on lemmy.ml?
feel free to do so on relevant posts
What’s the new community?
👍
I’ll be checking regularly if someone posted a question in it.
We could add to one of the megathreads that a [honest question] tag or something could be used for that, without creating a whole new pinned thread.
Great idea. I’m a deprogramming liberal. We’re here and feeling safe and welcome to learn and get feedback in a non judgmental or aggressive way is key.
I recommend getting apolitical “liberals” to watch videos from channels like Second Thought or Hakim. They tend to be accepting of criticism of capitalism and some support for socialism, but not of open support for communism (scary word
), at least until they’ve been “softened up” which those two do well.Etc etc
I found YouTube links in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Link 1:
Link 2:
Link 3:
Link 4:
I like the weekly thread/post where you can ask silly questions, of course has to be in good faith.
I think it’s a good idea. Majority of people hold mainstream political views largely due to the fact that they’ve grown up with these beliefs and haven’t had cause to critically evaluate them. As people in the mainstream become disillusioned with mainstream politics, they may be more open to considering alternative ideologies like communism. So, it’s really important for communists to have discussion with such people and to educate them.
Glad to see people seem to be behind the idea, though I guess the issue of having too many pins is always a thing. Hopefully it’s able to get enough activity to compensate in the algorithm like it has before.
I don’t consider myself a liberal by any stretch, but finding myself at odds with ideas espoused here or in other primarily communist instances almost always gets me flamed.
I honestly don’t expect this to go over very well when I say it, but you guys don’t tend to be very inviting to discuss your actual beliefs and ideas. You tend to respond to challenges to those ideas with hostility and labels, and it’s honestly why I stopped engaging a long time ago. It’s just not worth being labeled a liberal and berated by 10 different people who want to get in on the chance to burn someone who dared stumble in here without being in lockstep with your ideas.
All of this to say, you guys definitely have a reputation outside of your instances of being a club too exclusive for the layman to participate, and you very often reinforce that with broad indiscriminate hostility.
I personally keep your instances on my front page because I think it’s healthy to keep different perspectives. But unless in an exceptional circumstance like this one, I’m never going to engage because it never leads to actual discussion.
Anyway, just wanted to put that out there since I maybe fall under the category of who you’re talking about with this idea.
