You don’t get to call something bad faith just because you disagree with it or because it challenges your position. There is nothing to indicate this user was intending to mislead or actively deceive here.
@DarkNightoftheSoul thanks for your input. The protestors carrying swastikas and graffiti indicating support for literal genocide and the destruction of the Jewish state speaks for itself. So do the morally inverted accusations of genocide, tokenizing of Jews holding minority views, and casually swapping out “Jew” for “Zionist”.
If anyone doesn’t want to look the realities in the face, I’m not able to help them.
Okay, so I think what the other guy, and now I, are talking about, is we havent seen that. Can you please provide a source? I definitely dont want any nazis or genocide-supporters sneaking into my explicitly anti-genocide protest.
@DarkNightoftheSoul The Hamas charter specifically and transparently states that their mission is to kill all Jews anywhere on the planet. I encourage you to go read their charter and believe them when they say such things.
You may also wish to look at other campus protests where signs have included the language of “Final Solution” and depicted Jewish stars going into trashcans.
It’s not that I and the people with whom I associate support hamas, it’s that we don’t want the genocidal and ethnic cleansing and apartheid policies that spawned hamas in the first place to continue. We tend to believe that israel has created its own monster, and is (as a state and by policy) becoming or arguably has become a monster unto itself. An eye for an eye, bad blood leads to bad blood, vendetta begets vendetta begets vendetta. We want that to stop before more innocent women and children are murdered, and we’re tired of seeing our governments and institutions actively support it with their lucre. That expenditure, at least, is something we can influence, and so we are. To be clear, we don’t want hamas in power in palestine either, because they are also genocidal. We also recognize they exist as a response to their ancestral homeland being colonized and their brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers and daughters and sons being murdered- an eye for an eye leaving the entire region blind. We want a peace, and my local community at least would like to see a two-state conclusion to this conflict.
I don’t see anything about swastikas or anti-jewish rhetoric in your link, though I do see vague, indirect, and ultimately unsubstantiated imputations about harassment. I’d be very interested to know more about that, but every time I’ve looked at this campus and other campus’ protests in the news, specifically with an eye for things like swastikas and final solutions and whatnot, I’ve come up with only more implications.
Jameson says the encampment itself violates the university’s facilities policies, along with “credible” reports of harassing and intimidating conduct.
A statue outside of College Hall was also vandalized with antisemitic graffiti, according to the university.
The graffiti’d words were “Zios get fuckt” and since you and I already agree that zionist and jew cannot be casually swapped, I see here a person making a statement (in very poor taste) about the supporters of israel, and not the jewish people, against the wishes of the protest organizers.
(Edit: Incidentally, semite literally means people who speak semitic languages, like hebrew and arabic. You never hear antisemitic used to describe the indiscriminate massacre of a hospital or school in arab-speaking palestine, however. You’re right, far too much conflation between terms in this.)
Could you direct me to the news article or video or whatever it was that convinced you that campus protestors are including nazi language and imagery in their explicitly anti-genocide protests?
@DarkNightoftheSoul It may be a misunderstanding, but the misunderstanding seems willful.
Israel did not create terrorism. An Egyptian man named Yasser Arafat is properly the godfather of Palestinian violence. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo.
I don’t know what agreement you mean. Substituting the word “Zionist” for “Jew” is cheap, common misdirection to give antisemitism the gloss of neutrality.
I’m going to make this my last response. I hope you find peace.
I’m sorry, what would you call the deliberate, indiscriminate massacre of forty-thousand men, women, and children, and displacement of millions more if not terrorism? I call it terrorism, and genocide, and the incitement of terrorism and genocide and the response to terrorism and attempted genocide, going back not to arafat, but to 1948 and arguably even further back, but at least then. I feel I went over this pretty thoroughly already. Eyes and blood and vendetta and blindness and all that.
As for our- or I should say my, I guess- agreement, I took your statement:
… casually swapping out “Jew” for “Zionist”.
to mean that you agree with me that these terms are not synonymous. Do they mean the same thing in your opinion? They do not in mine. One is a person who supports a state, the other a person who practices a religion, at least in my book. I’m not catching whatever nuance you’re presenting, and you haven’t presented any sort of evidence to support that these protestors are using the one to mean the other, but merely asserted it.
I’d also like to draw my audience’s attention to the complete lack of whatever evidence you have of nazi imagery and language in these protests.
I must ask you either withdraw your unsubstantiated accusations against my fellow protestors or substantiate them. Of course, you could (and I suspect probably will) just leave them up, but I fear the juxtaposition of my asking for evidence and your begging the question by re-asserting the as-yet-unsubstantiated claim, changing the subject, and then refusing to speak further will do more harm to your position than you could wish.
“Willful misunderstanding” he says. “Bad faith,” forsooth. “Hurrumph,” say I.
You don’t get to call something bad faith just because you disagree with it or because it challenges your position. There is nothing to indicate this user was intending to mislead or actively deceive here.
@DarkNightoftheSoul thanks for your input. The protestors carrying swastikas and graffiti indicating support for literal genocide and the destruction of the Jewish state speaks for itself. So do the morally inverted accusations of genocide, tokenizing of Jews holding minority views, and casually swapping out “Jew” for “Zionist”.
If anyone doesn’t want to look the realities in the face, I’m not able to help them.
Again, thanks for your input.
Okay, so I think what the other guy, and now I, are talking about, is we havent seen that. Can you please provide a source? I definitely dont want any nazis or genocide-supporters sneaking into my explicitly anti-genocide protest.
@DarkNightoftheSoul The Hamas charter specifically and transparently states that their mission is to kill all Jews anywhere on the planet. I encourage you to go read their charter and believe them when they say such things.
As for the protests, this article outlines a specific Penn incident. https://whyy.org/articles/penns-interim-president-warns-campus-protestors/
You may also wish to look at other campus protests where signs have included the language of “Final Solution” and depicted Jewish stars going into trashcans.
How could you not see?
Ah. It’s a misunderstanding then.
It’s not that I and the people with whom I associate support hamas, it’s that we don’t want the genocidal and ethnic cleansing and apartheid policies that spawned hamas in the first place to continue. We tend to believe that israel has created its own monster, and is (as a state and by policy) becoming or arguably has become a monster unto itself. An eye for an eye, bad blood leads to bad blood, vendetta begets vendetta begets vendetta. We want that to stop before more innocent women and children are murdered, and we’re tired of seeing our governments and institutions actively support it with their lucre. That expenditure, at least, is something we can influence, and so we are. To be clear, we don’t want hamas in power in palestine either, because they are also genocidal. We also recognize they exist as a response to their ancestral homeland being colonized and their brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers and daughters and sons being murdered- an eye for an eye leaving the entire region blind. We want a peace, and my local community at least would like to see a two-state conclusion to this conflict.
I don’t see anything about swastikas or anti-jewish rhetoric in your link, though I do see vague, indirect, and ultimately unsubstantiated imputations about harassment. I’d be very interested to know more about that, but every time I’ve looked at this campus and other campus’ protests in the news, specifically with an eye for things like swastikas and final solutions and whatnot, I’ve come up with only more implications.
The graffiti’d words were “Zios get fuckt” and since you and I already agree that zionist and jew cannot be casually swapped, I see here a person making a statement (in very poor taste) about the supporters of israel, and not the jewish people, against the wishes of the protest organizers.
(Edit: Incidentally, semite literally means people who speak semitic languages, like hebrew and arabic. You never hear antisemitic used to describe the indiscriminate massacre of a hospital or school in arab-speaking palestine, however. You’re right, far too much conflation between terms in this.)
Could you direct me to the news article or video or whatever it was that convinced you that campus protestors are including nazi language and imagery in their explicitly anti-genocide protests?
@DarkNightoftheSoul It may be a misunderstanding, but the misunderstanding seems willful.
Israel did not create terrorism. An Egyptian man named Yasser Arafat is properly the godfather of Palestinian violence. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo.
I don’t know what agreement you mean. Substituting the word “Zionist” for “Jew” is cheap, common misdirection to give antisemitism the gloss of neutrality.
I’m going to make this my last response. I hope you find peace.
I’m sorry, what would you call the deliberate, indiscriminate massacre of forty-thousand men, women, and children, and displacement of millions more if not terrorism? I call it terrorism, and genocide, and the incitement of terrorism and genocide and the response to terrorism and attempted genocide, going back not to arafat, but to 1948 and arguably even further back, but at least then. I feel I went over this pretty thoroughly already. Eyes and blood and vendetta and blindness and all that.
As for our- or I should say my, I guess- agreement, I took your statement:
to mean that you agree with me that these terms are not synonymous. Do they mean the same thing in your opinion? They do not in mine. One is a person who supports a state, the other a person who practices a religion, at least in my book. I’m not catching whatever nuance you’re presenting, and you haven’t presented any sort of evidence to support that these protestors are using the one to mean the other, but merely asserted it.
I’d also like to draw my audience’s attention to the complete lack of whatever evidence you have of nazi imagery and language in these protests.
I must ask you either withdraw your unsubstantiated accusations against my fellow protestors or substantiate them. Of course, you could (and I suspect probably will) just leave them up, but I fear the juxtaposition of my asking for evidence and your begging the question by re-asserting the as-yet-unsubstantiated claim, changing the subject, and then refusing to speak further will do more harm to your position than you could wish.
“Willful misunderstanding” he says. “Bad faith,” forsooth. “Hurrumph,” say I.
@DarkNightoftheSoul From the bottom of my heart and the core of my marrow, I genuinely hope you find peace.
That’s certainly what I’m- we’re looking for.
For my part, I do not now nor have I ever wished you harm.
In your own terms, I wish you peace as well.
Edit:
The Lord bless you and keep you;
the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you;
the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.