On the internet I don’t see too many Anarchists give arguments past “communism doesn’t work because communists are doomed to repeat the same exploitative power structures of the capitalist state” and “we dont know what an anarchist society will look like we gotta wait til we get there!” Which like…is not convincing to me at all. I’ve engaged in what was supposed to be consensus based decision making systems and there were a ton of flaws, though that’s purely anecdotal.
So, I’d really like to have some suggestions on what to read that you think might really challenge where I stand/take anarchism more seriously. It might take me 5 years to get to them bc executive dysfunction but I really want to see if my mind can be changed on if it would be a better system from the get go than communism.
I think it would be super interesting to hear from anyone who shifted into anarchism from Marxism on why it made more sense to you
Are we allowed to have discussion on these points in this thread? Because one thing I never understood is the idea that the socialist projects have to wither away so fast, I never got how anyone thought we were at any time in modern history at a point where the coordination created by socialist States could be torn down safely while preserving the gains made.
With the richest countries in the world and many of their colonies, with all the nukes and military one could imagine, breathing down on your doorstep I don’t know how it’s rational to think that you should then begin tearing down the structures which were then only created out of historical necessity to fight against these very forces. Do Anarchists (capital A) generally believe that the period for communist parties to prove they can transition towards a classless society has passed, and that they’ve somehow proven they’re incapable? Or do they think that the chance hasn’t been available yet but that if it was then communists would then prove themselves incapable of transitioning towards communism?
Anarchists generally think that state communist parties (council communists are a different question) are not capable to lead towards a stateless, classless society, since they want to use state power, whose primary functions include reproducing itself. I’m yet to read any convincing account about how, if we got there, Leninists would start to break down the vehicle they used to defeat capitalism and rallied society around.
If you’re asking my opinion, i have much of the same scepticism towards communist parties, but not on an equal level, for example i see much more potential in Latin American left/communist movements than in China. What i differ from most anarchists tho is that i’d be very happy to be proven wrong and generally won’t advocate for the overthrow of the CCP in the current context.
Doesn’t it seem reasonable that the idea of trying to create a classless society would be a task better suited for those who come after us? For example, the promise of socialism is that democracy is then increased to be available to the wider masses of people. Socialist societies have in the past, and even in the modern day, demonstrate that they’re able to make huge leaps in social progress that enable more people than ever before be able to participate in the democratic processes of a society. I guess I’m not convinced that the idea that “Leninsts would not break down their own state” is something which is provable, and thus not a useful heuristic for making decisions. So what if “Leninists” aren’t capable of the next step in the growth of humanity, it’s been shown that they’ll give up on their power much more peacefully than societies dominated by the bourgeois class ever will (even and especially communist officials who didn’t benefit from the transition to liberal governance). If we’re able to save the planetary ecosystem with cybernetic planning, end hunger, guarantee housing and work for those who’re able and a good life for those who aren’t as the “Leninists” demand; won’t we have left our children with far more fertile soil for an anarchist society than if we simply struggle directly for a classeless society today?
IF we are able, than i’ll be the first one to admit that. But if in the process we have to wiretap literally everyone and encourage snitching on our friends, i’ll reserve the right to be sceptical about whether this is the goal or not.
Yeah but this hangup is also disconnected from the actual reality of living in socialist societies outside of their most turbulent times. The United States is already the most surveilled society and it doesn’t effect most people; only political actors working against the status quo and those recruited by intelligence agencies to shoot up a mall. As well, friends snitching on friends, it’s reminiscent of only a short era of Soviet history that’s often highly exaggerated.
However I can’t blame you for your hangups, except to say that after talking to comrades in multiple different existing socialist nations, I simply don’t have them anymore. If you ever get the chance to talk to communists in real communist parties, I think your worries will fade away. They’re largely like all the punks and progressives I know in my life if they were simply given the political education and support to make their society better. I can’t guarantee this is true in all cases, clearly, but socialist governance is far more humane and elevates far better members of society than the bourgeois governance we’re both used to. It really does set the stage for a better humanity.
I live in a former east bloc state (hungary) and the only communist party we have left is explicitly against LGBTQ people and immigration. In the meantime unions are in shambles because all union activity was heavily vetted by the police so workers now don’t even care to try (of course 30 years of neoliberal pacification also contributed but there was basically zero resistance even in the 90’s because they were all gutted. So i am a bit sceptic about it, but again, i am happy to be proven wrong, i would be a supporter if such a humane system would rise and i watch with great admiration the latin american projects (and also defend for example Cuba against radlib losers who think it’s the most authoritarian state ever).
One thought morsel to your original question though: If we got closer to all those things through ways of anarchistic organizing, wouldn’t that be better too even if it ultimately fails to achieve all the goals?
Hm, yeah, I can definitely see your perspective. I’ve only interacted with members of, for example, Cuba and China’s communist parties; so that paints the picture for me in my mind of what a communist party looks like.
I think to answer your question though, I guess I focus on two things;
A) A clear path of continuation, explicitly bound institutions which allow the next generation to pick up the mantle of running whatever revolution, and this requires institutions in my experience
B) An ability to survive through crisis, for example, if an anarchist project were able to bring huge progress in a short period of time, what use would it be if that project was then crushed by better organized and better funded imperialists or capitalists within a matter of years if not months?
I guess for me, I see that positive change only happens over long periods of time. The projects and solutions we have to environmental decay, economic democracy, etc all require these two things which socialist projects (not all, unfortunately, but enough to learn from) have shown an ability to do. If we don’t engage with what’s worked historically and build and improve that, we might as well be theorizing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Lenin himself writes extensively on critiquing the existence of the state, so any real leninist would align with this position. Mao himself also was quite anti-state, see the cultural revolution. Both of these incredibly important figures were anti state but saw it as a necessary tool to defend against extreme capitalist agression. there is little doubt in my mind that if capitalism fell, many would start critquing and deconstructing the current power structures.
Many would see it in their best interest too, because every head of Marxism leninism has shouted to the stars about the bureaucratic state apparatus corrupting Socialism and causing capitalist restoration.
As i said, i’d be very happy to be proven wrong. The thing is that with this method you would have to keep that anti-state ethos up for generations and generations as we see, so there’s ample time for there to be sticks put between the gears. A global revolution you wrote about in the other comment would help with that.
Mind expanding on that since it seems like in the us its doing a piss poor job of it. In fact I’d say that a capital dominated state wants to do away with itself via privatization.
Engle’s makes a pretty convincing argument that the state arose to mediate class conflict in favor of capital and that it cannot be destroyed until that class conflict is resolved.
Take the landlord tenant relationship. In order for this to exist then the landlord must exercise their property right through state mediated violence and the tenant is offered some rudimentary protections. If the state simply no longer recognized the property right of the land lord the state would wither and class conflict would resolve a bit.
That’s not how i see it. From what i see capital still needs and will need in the future the state there to be an enforcer. IMO the ultimate dead end of right wing libertarian theory is this, even when the market’s hand is the least tied by the state there will be a need for a force to beat down slave riots. And that’s what the state’s ultimate power lies in and i don’t see it privatized in the future.
So Engels is half right about that, but i’d rather say that negotiating class conflict with violence is one way the state can be used and it doesn’t negate that it reproduces it’s power itself. The state pulling the rug from under landlords is a good step but in this context imo it’s not necessarily withering it just oversees the conflict in a different (better) way - would a tenant yeeting their landlord be arrested? Would landlords have their properties violently seized? These are all good things imo but they don’t contribute to the withering of the state, only give it another role. And under communist parties - at least until they get to the point where capitalist forces aren’t a threat - it’s necessary to have the state as an official enforcer.