I’m struggling with this now. In my 20’s I worked all the low-wage crap jobs but I was physically moving a lot.
Now I get paid a lot more to sit on a computer all day at home, and I still love computer programming, web development, building networks, etc.
The problem is I miss it being a hobby. I’m kind of burned out on our work project and sometimes I daydream about going back to work in fast food. Believe it or not I loved working in the kitchen at McDonald’s during lunch rush — it sounds fucking cheesy but my store manager and I used to race to see who could make orders faster without making mistakes.
Going back is just not doable now with the cost of living now.
Edit: I realize writing this makes it sound like I’m calling garbage truck driver a shitty job; my intention originally was to say that I miss physically working (and to an extent being in the world) but I veered off in my late night state
I’d love a society where people have to work less for a start, but also where the blue collar jobs are distributed so that information workers had some physical job to do as well. That way they get to work their minds and their bodies, don’t wear out either one, and the diversity of experience allows ideas to cross pollinate.
If an engineer worked in garbage disposal they’d be able to engineer out some pain points of the job. A doctor, physiotherapist, administrator, researcher, lawyer, all could learn and help a lot if they saw how the other side lives. People doing blue collar jobs wouldn’t be stuck, continuing education would be normalised, the “prestige” aspect of different jobs would be lessened, service and menial workers would be less neglected, and the “ivory tower” of white collar and academic work would come down.
The wages for those jobs would need to go up. I don’t know why the most important jobs in a society like cleaning are some of the worst paid and looked down.
Since we’re fantasising about an ideal society I’d get rid of wage slavery entirely.
I agree the best jobs are the worst paid, but I think the absolute most important are jobs like child-rearing, and they’re usually completely unpaid. It’s basically a complete inversion between pay grade and importance.
Im smart enough i could make good money at a desk job, but i just can’t do that. I gotta move during the day, i like using my muscles, i hate sitting still for hours on end. Ive ended up in trades and these jobs are nice because they can be physical but also need my brain. I just wish I was paid better. Im often working in homes of very wealthy people providing an essential service (drinking water) but I will struggle to own a shack at my wage.
Gotta have capital to run a shop. When you struggle to buy a shack to live in, you’ll also struggle to put a van on a road, own a shop to operate, buy enough materials and equipment up front.
Ive been at my new position for nearly a year and im doing great. Im going to make it clear to my boss soon that if he wants to keep me, i need to make enough to enter the housing market.
For some people maybe, but this is meant to address the idea that if we didn’t force people into “shitty” jobs through capitalist wage slavery, they wouldn’t get done. It’s extremely common to hear that retort whenever anyone suggests that our economic system that impoverishes the vast majority of the human race might be bad actually.
It would certainly be harder to get people to do bullshit jobs, which are defined by David Graeber as jobs which the person doing them agrees have no meaningful purpose, which is a shockingly large number of jobs in modern society.
Weirdly, they tend to be the jobs that are highly paid, as opposed to the really necessary jobs that are low paid. That could even suggest that money is inversely correlated with the value of a job because it is in fact easier to get someone to do a job that is obviously needed.
While I believe some are driven by the idea of them being needed, sanitation or cleaning is one aspect I’d expect to see less interested workers in because to many those are just very unpleasant jobs. Not to mention mining or other physically demanding or dangerous jobs. So in a completely voluntary system you’d probably have hard time to fill out the ranks of such jobs. Mind numbing jobs like assembly line work might be tough one too.
I wonder what the society would look like in such a system. Would be interesting
You can get a clue of how it might work from modern cooperative workplaces where the employees are the owners. They elect their managers and can recall them, so everything is done on a voluntary basis but it still gets done. People have to do multiple jobs because nobody will accept doing only menial work and not having a say in the running of the place, and management is selected from the workers, not a separate stream of professionalised managers.
I think a lot of factory style work would vanish in favour of more localised, more custom production. We wouldn’t be as “productive” but then we probably wouldn’t be killing the planet either. Fundamentally people would understand that necessary jobs are necessary. We’re not morons, we don’t need some special owner class to tell us what’s good for us and dictate the movements of society according to what makes them the most money. It clearly isn’t working for us anyway as it is.
I think it’s easier to get working in small scale but on a country or global level it might be interesting to see.
I think a lot of factory style work would vanish in favour of more localised, more custom production. We wouldn’t be as “productive” but then we probably wouldn’t be killing the planet either.
Productivity and efficiency can be good too, wastes less time and can waste less resources. Factories can be much more efficient compared to the more localized smaller scale industry. Logistics being just one aspect. But I suspect in this voluntary model, if things are scaled down, we’d just have to do with less. Especially in the Western world. Which is a big ask for a lot of people. A lot of machinery and pharmaceuticals are one aspect where efficiency would be necessary, since a downgrade there could have disastrous consequences.
We’re not morons,
Agree to disagree.
we don’t need some special owner class to tell us what’s good for us and dictate the movements of society according to what makes them the most money. It clearly isn’t working for us anyway as it is.
Some sort of democratic model could work. I imagine sometimes do need to be compelled to make sure things are actually done. But then it’d need a way to compel people, which might be the downfall of the whole thing.
Okay, so you basically just called me a “moron”, along with every person you hold in too much contempt to trust them with running their own lives.
Congratulations on being such a smart and clever boy that you can shit on everyone else with your big dicked brain and you don’t need anyone. You’re a real life Rick Sanchez.
We have no common ground, but I’m sure that doesn’t matter to someone like you.
I’m sure you have an explanation why it doesn’t work “at scale”, unlike literally every other basic asshole I’ve heard say that who had absolutely no way to back it up. They just say the word “scale” and that’s enough. I’m sure your explanation would fly right over my stupid dumb moron head.
We just haven’t as a species made the best decisions, barreling towards making the planet inhospitable through our actions as we speak. It’s not personal.
I’m sure you have an explanation why it doesn’t work “at scale”, unlike literally every other basic asshole I’ve heard say that who had absolutely no way to back it up. They just say the word “scale” and that’s enough. I’m sure your explanation would fly right over my stupid dumb moron head.
Do you mean when I said that it’d be interesting to see the system at scale? I didn’t say it wouldn’t work, I said it’d be interesting to see because one workplace is one thing but a whole society or a country running on a voluntary system would be something different and pose new challenges. And I don’t think we’ve really seen such societies in modern times, so would be something new.
I mean, you don’t to wait for a witch to turn you into a garbage truck driver. You can just apply for the job. Go on. Go vibe
I’m struggling with this now. In my 20’s I worked all the low-wage crap jobs but I was physically moving a lot.
Now I get paid a lot more to sit on a computer all day at home, and I still love computer programming, web development, building networks, etc.
The problem is I miss it being a hobby. I’m kind of burned out on our work project and sometimes I daydream about going back to work in fast food. Believe it or not I loved working in the kitchen at McDonald’s during lunch rush — it sounds fucking cheesy but my store manager and I used to race to see who could make orders faster without making mistakes.
Going back is just not doable now with the cost of living now.
Edit: I realize writing this makes it sound like I’m calling garbage truck driver a shitty job; my intention originally was to say that I miss physically working (and to an extent being in the world) but I veered off in my late night state
I’d love a society where people have to work less for a start, but also where the blue collar jobs are distributed so that information workers had some physical job to do as well. That way they get to work their minds and their bodies, don’t wear out either one, and the diversity of experience allows ideas to cross pollinate.
If an engineer worked in garbage disposal they’d be able to engineer out some pain points of the job. A doctor, physiotherapist, administrator, researcher, lawyer, all could learn and help a lot if they saw how the other side lives. People doing blue collar jobs wouldn’t be stuck, continuing education would be normalised, the “prestige” aspect of different jobs would be lessened, service and menial workers would be less neglected, and the “ivory tower” of white collar and academic work would come down.
The wages for those jobs would need to go up. I don’t know why the most important jobs in a society like cleaning are some of the worst paid and looked down.
Since we’re fantasising about an ideal society I’d get rid of wage slavery entirely.
I agree the best jobs are the worst paid, but I think the absolute most important are jobs like child-rearing, and they’re usually completely unpaid. It’s basically a complete inversion between pay grade and importance.
Im smart enough i could make good money at a desk job, but i just can’t do that. I gotta move during the day, i like using my muscles, i hate sitting still for hours on end. Ive ended up in trades and these jobs are nice because they can be physical but also need my brain. I just wish I was paid better. Im often working in homes of very wealthy people providing an essential service (drinking water) but I will struggle to own a shack at my wage.
I believe the trades are actually pretty profitable as long as you run your own shop? I could be wrong of course.
Gotta have capital to run a shop. When you struggle to buy a shack to live in, you’ll also struggle to put a van on a road, own a shop to operate, buy enough materials and equipment up front.
Ive been at my new position for nearly a year and im doing great. Im going to make it clear to my boss soon that if he wants to keep me, i need to make enough to enter the housing market.
That’s true. I suppose nobody starts their own company right away, gotta get experience and capital first.
For some people maybe, but this is meant to address the idea that if we didn’t force people into “shitty” jobs through capitalist wage slavery, they wouldn’t get done. It’s extremely common to hear that retort whenever anyone suggests that our economic system that impoverishes the vast majority of the human race might be bad actually.
It probably would be a lot harder to get some jobs done. A lot of those jobs might be more or less unnecessary but not all.
It would certainly be harder to get people to do bullshit jobs, which are defined by David Graeber as jobs which the person doing them agrees have no meaningful purpose, which is a shockingly large number of jobs in modern society.
Weirdly, they tend to be the jobs that are highly paid, as opposed to the really necessary jobs that are low paid. That could even suggest that money is inversely correlated with the value of a job because it is in fact easier to get someone to do a job that is obviously needed.
While I believe some are driven by the idea of them being needed, sanitation or cleaning is one aspect I’d expect to see less interested workers in because to many those are just very unpleasant jobs. Not to mention mining or other physically demanding or dangerous jobs. So in a completely voluntary system you’d probably have hard time to fill out the ranks of such jobs. Mind numbing jobs like assembly line work might be tough one too.
I wonder what the society would look like in such a system. Would be interesting
You can get a clue of how it might work from modern cooperative workplaces where the employees are the owners. They elect their managers and can recall them, so everything is done on a voluntary basis but it still gets done. People have to do multiple jobs because nobody will accept doing only menial work and not having a say in the running of the place, and management is selected from the workers, not a separate stream of professionalised managers.
I think a lot of factory style work would vanish in favour of more localised, more custom production. We wouldn’t be as “productive” but then we probably wouldn’t be killing the planet either. Fundamentally people would understand that necessary jobs are necessary. We’re not morons, we don’t need some special owner class to tell us what’s good for us and dictate the movements of society according to what makes them the most money. It clearly isn’t working for us anyway as it is.
I think it’s easier to get working in small scale but on a country or global level it might be interesting to see.
Productivity and efficiency can be good too, wastes less time and can waste less resources. Factories can be much more efficient compared to the more localized smaller scale industry. Logistics being just one aspect. But I suspect in this voluntary model, if things are scaled down, we’d just have to do with less. Especially in the Western world. Which is a big ask for a lot of people. A lot of machinery and pharmaceuticals are one aspect where efficiency would be necessary, since a downgrade there could have disastrous consequences.
Agree to disagree.
Some sort of democratic model could work. I imagine sometimes do need to be compelled to make sure things are actually done. But then it’d need a way to compel people, which might be the downfall of the whole thing.
Okay, so you basically just called me a “moron”, along with every person you hold in too much contempt to trust them with running their own lives.Congratulations on being such a smart and clever boy that you can shit on everyone else with your big dicked brain and you don’t need anyone. You’re a real life Rick Sanchez.We have no common ground, but I’m sure that doesn’t matter to someone like you.I’m sure you have an explanation why it doesn’t work “at scale”, unlike literally every other basic asshole I’ve heard say that who had absolutely no way to back it up. They just say the word “scale” and that’s enough. I’m sure your explanation would fly right over my stupid dumb moron head.Edit: well this was uncalled for.
We just haven’t as a species made the best decisions, barreling towards making the planet inhospitable through our actions as we speak. It’s not personal.
Do you mean when I said that it’d be interesting to see the system at scale? I didn’t say it wouldn’t work, I said it’d be interesting to see because one workplace is one thing but a whole society or a country running on a voluntary system would be something different and pose new challenges. And I don’t think we’ve really seen such societies in modern times, so would be something new.
Did you miss step 1? Thats probably required to live a financially stable life with that job.
Well, you’ll probably need a CDL. But they’re not that hard to get
Yeah! In this case there is no reason not to live the dream.