I’m sure there’s a coherent statement in there, waiting to get out.
But now that you’ve edited your previous comment to add mention of the Uyghur people, let’s talk about that:
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing terrorist cells in Xinjiang, and once those efforts failed, it concocted and promoted a genocide narrative. Antony Blinken is still pushing this slop.
We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
Oh AND, speaking of the periphery: Isn’t it strange how almost no predominantly-Muslim country has signed up for these supposed Uyghur human rights violations? It’s largely the imperial core countries that have. Is it because Muslims don’t value human life—even those of their fellow Muslims—or is it because it’s largely bullshit? https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330
#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
Afaik the only majority muslim country that support the western lies campaign about Xinjiang is Albania because they so much want to be admitted to EU, that in the process they gave up their every potential bargaining chip and never even once looked at Turkey to compare and assess their chances.
Meanwhile in burgerland, Obama dropped an average of 60 bombs on north africa and the middle east every single day during his presidency. Have the US people held him to account, and have him face a war crimes tribunal for this atrocity against humanity?
Anything. One example of Xi being held to account disproves the description of an unaccountable dictator.
Obama dropped bombs
“The president has, in this capacity, plenary power to launch, direct and supervise military operations, order or authorize the deployment of troops, unilaterally launch nuclear weapons, and form military policy with the Department of Defense and Homeland Security.”
Yes, for these actions the president is accountable to no-one for 4 years.
Just take a look at any mainstream western media that mentions China and it shouldn’t take too long to spot a lie, it will probably even be in the headline. Even just the fact that it’s practically a joke-meme that anything China does that is unambiguously positive will get a headline in the west that includes “But At wHaT cOsT?!?”
But for a few obvious, overt examples: Uighur “genocide.” Spy balloons. Winnie the Pooh ban. Social credit scores.
And just to add, if you somehow missed it like I did (until just a minute ago), @davel@lemmy.ml provided a ton of information debunking the Uyghur “genocide” myth right here in this very thread. He just did a great favor for any well-meaning liberals who actually want to find out more about what the situation really is in Xinjiang, he basically did yall’s homework for you.
Well, the most serious lie fortunately has the most material that thoroughly proves its falsehood. The following link contains more links to many such resources: https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/ It’s a place to start, both if you want just immediate proof that there is no genocide as well as if you want to learn more about what really has been going on in Xinjiang.
Even though they still are obligated to call it a spy balloon because The Narrative is still officially that it was, even western media have quietly admitted that despite flying across the continent, the balloon did absolutely no spying and actually appeared to be utterly incapable of doing any spying. Weird, how inefficient! And seriously, anyone who has even a passing knowledge of weather balloons or spycraft would have told you this from the beginning, as many did.
https://xcancel.com/Reuters/status/1674507379306557462
No, Winnie the Pooh is not banned in China and simply looking around a bit for things that exist in China confirms this. Telling people who live in China that people in the US believe Pooh is banned will result in laughter. This is in China, does it look banned? https://www.shanghaidisneyresort.com/en/attractions/adventures-winnie-pooh/ There was a racist caricature image/meme that along with portraying Xi as Pooh also portrayed Obama as the Tigger character. (I would hope no one here would need explaining why both of those are extremely racist). That specific racist image was officially censored online, but censoring racism is a good thing, and again, Pooh the character, the franchise, or anything else like that, none of it banned. That it was is just another silly lie. Though the whole of reddit (for example) believes the lie because it aligns with the rest of the bullshit they think they know about China which is just straight up false.
China’s infamous “Social Credit Score” also isn’t real: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social-credit-score-isnt-real/ There is a kind of rating system of businesses that allows people to score them based on how well they are a service to the community they’re in, but seeing as most people would recognize that as a good thing, the sinophobic propagandists won’t tell you that, but instead fabricate yet another bogus story to paint China as a boogeyman. This one is especially galling because all the scary things they made up with this one actually has a much worse version that is reality in the west. It’s such a blatant case of projection it’s jokerifying.
The US and China are rapidly approaching a new kind of media-driven Cold War, with the unaligned nations being the battlefronts for dueling propaganda efforts. The problem that the western propagandists have is that they’ve generally gotten really bad at it. Gone are the days of Marshall Plans and international trade deals. All the NATO states seem to know how to do is ratchet up their sanctions regime.
To quote Dr Lubinda Haabazoka, Director of the University of Zambia Graduate School of Business and former President of the Economics Association of Zambia
Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture.
The US and China are rapidly approaching a new kind of media-driven Cold War
I’d say we’re already there even though it is largely one-sided.
with the unaligned nations being the battlefronts for dueling propaganda efforts
How do you figure? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just rather I don’t see too much propaganda aimed at other nations, rather it’s imperial core countries aiming their propaganda at their own populations for usual consent-manufacturing reasons, and perhaps China aiming a little bit at their own population but to a far lesser extent as to be almost insignificant in comparison. China doesn’t really need to manufacture any consent domestically because it’s not the one saber-rattling for a conflict. When it comes to peripheral nations, the west mostly just says to them “do what we tell you to or else” and China mostly just says “hey, whatever, let’s just do some trading.”
The problem that the western propagandists have is that they’ve generally gotten really bad at it.
Well, in a way. You’re right that all they seem to know to do is ratchet up the sanctions, but their method of propaganda is sheer saturation. Make sure that every mainstream media outlet is on board with the anti-China propaganda and steer all major social media such that “China Bad!” appears to be a unanimous consensus, and job done. And it works extremely well. The state propaganda doesn’t need to be very sophisticated itself at this point because the consent-manufacturing machine has been built, maintained, and well-oiled for a long time already.
To quote Dr Lubinda Haabazoka
That is a great quote and really does sum up the comparison of how the west and China each approach international relations with would-be economic partners. It’s a good demonstration for why any propaganda battle between the west and China for the approval of the rest of the world would necessarily be so one-sided. One of them has to lie and endlessly make up excuses for their actions and behavior (bullying and swindling) while the other can just calmly gesture towards their actions and behavior (equal exchange and genuine support).
I’d say we’re already there even though it is largely one-sided
When you’re in the belly of the beast, it’s easy to miss what’s going on outside. I don’t think it’s one sided, by any stretch.
The state propaganda doesn’t need to be very sophisticated itself at this point because the consent-manufacturing machine has been built, maintained, and well-oiled for a long time already.
The post WW2 Peace Dividend has largely played itself out, though. Our voracious appetite for extraction is costing us open ears internationally.
Like, nobody in Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Israel or even Ukraine really takes the US propaganda seriously. They’ve got their own internal propaganda that is far more compelling, and it’s often diametrically opposed to the liberal democratic line.
One of them has to lie and endlessly make up excuses for their actions and behavior (bullying and swindling) while the other can just calmly gesture towards their actions and behavior (equal exchange and genuine support).
I think it is a mistake to think Chinese businessmen and bureaucrats are simply beyond bullying and swindling. But they don’t have the luxury of the world’s biggest military to swing around, nor do they have this ever-growing arsenal of privately developed weapons that they’re eager to exhaust and replenish.
The incentives of a communist country are fundamentally different from a capitalist state. This allows Chinese diplomats to exercise techniques that NATO states do not have the political tool bag to deploy.
When you’re in the belly of the beast, it’s easy to miss what’s going on outside. I don’t think it’s one sided, by any stretch.
It’s true. my perspective is unavoidably limited by being in an imperial core country, but is there any evidence for how China is conducting a propaganda war against the US (or at all) anywhere near the same volume or scale that the US is against China?
Like, nobody in Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Israel or even Ukraine really takes the US propaganda seriously. They’ve got their own internal propaganda that is far more compelling, and it’s often diametrically opposed to the liberal democratic line.
Yeah, I agree. But that’s what I was getting a about the western propaganda being mostly designed for their respective domestic populations, it’s not produced for the sake of the common folk of non-western countries. Is the US even attempting to make propaganda directed at the populations of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, or Ukraine? They don’t need to, since for the most part, those who rule in those countries are in alignment with US interests anyway. The liberal democratic line exists (once again) for the population within the core countries themselves. Like, the US doesn’t give a single shit that Saudi Arabia is a theocratic monarchy. Ukraine? Vassals of NATO, of course their internal propaganda is in line with the US. They would never even think of siding with China over the US and despise China anyway for not siding against Russia. Israel can’t exist without the will and favor of the US, they are a massive military outpost for the west in the middle east and are autonomous only so far as they are willing to be more openly fascist in how they go about doing what the US wants them to do anyway, the US in no way needs to produce propaganda to influence them. Turkey does at least have some differing interests than the US, but they’re still a NATO country and so far haven’t had the reason or will to rock the boat in a way that is pro-China and anti-US.
I think it is a mistake to think Chinese businessmen and bureaucrats are simply beyond bullying and swindling.
Oh believe me, that’s not a mistake I’m making. But as has been said many times, business interests (owners of private capital) in China are on a leash held by the state, in the west it’s the other way around. I don’t doubt that Chinese capitalists would swindle just as much as any other capitalists, but they aren’t the ones calling the shots, the CPC is. And the CPC has repeatedly demonstrated that they only want to do fair, equal exchange, mutually beneficial economics with other countries. They don’t need a massive propaganda machine to convince their trading partners that this is their agenda since their actions over the last couple decades are convincing enough, hence the quote you posted: “Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture.”
The incentives of a communist country are fundamentally different from a capitalist state.
Absolutely.
This allows Chinese diplomats to exercise techniques that NATO states do not have the political tool bag to deploy.
I guess I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Techniques like equal exchange?
Thankfully we have other ways of coming to an understanding about China. Particularly the media, especially international media.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_papers
https://www.jpolrisk.com/karakax/
https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/
https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ohchr-assessment-human-rights-concerns-xinjiang-uyghur-autonomous-region
That often depends on whether one is talking about imperial core media or peripheral media. Yet another case of alwaysthesamemap.
As you add more parties into your conspiracy it gets harder to justify the existence of said conspiracy, no?
Edit: since it’s confusing to you, look up Occam’s razor, I’m sure you’ll learn a thing or two
I’m sure there’s a coherent statement in there, waiting to get out.
But now that you’ve edited your previous comment to add mention of the Uyghur people, let’s talk about that:
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing terrorist cells in Xinjiang, and once those efforts failed, it concocted and promoted a genocide narrative. Antony Blinken is still pushing this slop.
.
The blueprint of regime change operations
Oh AND, speaking of the periphery: Isn’t it strange how almost no predominantly-Muslim country has signed up for these supposed Uyghur human rights violations? It’s largely the imperial core countries that have. Is it because Muslims don’t value human life—even those of their fellow Muslims—or is it because it’s largely bullshit?
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330
Afaik the only majority muslim country that support the western lies campaign about Xinjiang is Albania because they so much want to be admitted to EU, that in the process they gave up their every potential bargaining chip and never even once looked at Turkey to compare and assess their chances.
Wrong prophet.
Which international media? I’m guessing you mean media based in the US and US allies if you’re anti-china
Luckily most countries don’t believe the lies the US is trying to spread about China.
The lies the US spread about china… which are those? Just curious.
Many, like the exploding helmets thing, or the idea of Xi being an unaccountable dictator.
Should be easily proven by giving an example of Xi being held to account.
For what exactly?
Meanwhile in burgerland, Obama dropped an average of 60 bombs on north africa and the middle east every single day during his presidency. Have the US people held him to account, and have him face a war crimes tribunal for this atrocity against humanity?
Anything. One example of Xi being held to account disproves the description of an unaccountable dictator.
“The president has, in this capacity, plenary power to launch, direct and supervise military operations, order or authorize the deployment of troops, unilaterally launch nuclear weapons, and form military policy with the Department of Defense and Homeland Security.”
Yes, for these actions the president is accountable to no-one for 4 years.
Just take a look at any mainstream western media that mentions China and it shouldn’t take too long to spot a lie, it will probably even be in the headline. Even just the fact that it’s practically a joke-meme that anything China does that is unambiguously positive will get a headline in the west that includes “But At wHaT cOsT?!?”
But for a few obvious, overt examples: Uighur “genocide.” Spy balloons. Winnie the Pooh ban. Social credit scores.
Got sources that debunk those? I’d like to learn.
And just to add, if you somehow missed it like I did (until just a minute ago), @davel@lemmy.ml provided a ton of information debunking the Uyghur “genocide” myth right here in this very thread. He just did a great favor for any well-meaning liberals who actually want to find out more about what the situation really is in Xinjiang, he basically did yall’s homework for you.
Well, the most serious lie fortunately has the most material that thoroughly proves its falsehood. The following link contains more links to many such resources: https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/ It’s a place to start, both if you want just immediate proof that there is no genocide as well as if you want to learn more about what really has been going on in Xinjiang.
Even though they still are obligated to call it a spy balloon because The Narrative is still officially that it was, even western media have quietly admitted that despite flying across the continent, the balloon did absolutely no spying and actually appeared to be utterly incapable of doing any spying. Weird, how inefficient! And seriously, anyone who has even a passing knowledge of weather balloons or spycraft would have told you this from the beginning, as many did. https://xcancel.com/Reuters/status/1674507379306557462
No, Winnie the Pooh is not banned in China and simply looking around a bit for things that exist in China confirms this. Telling people who live in China that people in the US believe Pooh is banned will result in laughter. This is in China, does it look banned? https://www.shanghaidisneyresort.com/en/attractions/adventures-winnie-pooh/ There was a racist caricature image/meme that along with portraying Xi as Pooh also portrayed Obama as the Tigger character. (I would hope no one here would need explaining why both of those are extremely racist). That specific racist image was officially censored online, but censoring racism is a good thing, and again, Pooh the character, the franchise, or anything else like that, none of it banned. That it was is just another silly lie. Though the whole of reddit (for example) believes the lie because it aligns with the rest of the bullshit they think they know about China which is just straight up false.
China’s infamous “Social Credit Score” also isn’t real: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social-credit-score-isnt-real/ There is a kind of rating system of businesses that allows people to score them based on how well they are a service to the community they’re in, but seeing as most people would recognize that as a good thing, the sinophobic propagandists won’t tell you that, but instead fabricate yet another bogus story to paint China as a boogeyman. This one is especially galling because all the scary things they made up with this one actually has a much worse version that is reality in the west. It’s such a blatant case of projection it’s jokerifying.
Too many to list.
This isn’t a helpful answer and comes across as disingenuous. You should provide even just a few.
I’m not going to come up with an argument for you, then debate against it.
The US and China are rapidly approaching a new kind of media-driven Cold War, with the unaligned nations being the battlefronts for dueling propaganda efforts. The problem that the western propagandists have is that they’ve generally gotten really bad at it. Gone are the days of Marshall Plans and international trade deals. All the NATO states seem to know how to do is ratchet up their sanctions regime.
To quote Dr Lubinda Haabazoka, Director of the University of Zambia Graduate School of Business and former President of the Economics Association of Zambia
I’d say we’re already there even though it is largely one-sided.
How do you figure? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just rather I don’t see too much propaganda aimed at other nations, rather it’s imperial core countries aiming their propaganda at their own populations for usual consent-manufacturing reasons, and perhaps China aiming a little bit at their own population but to a far lesser extent as to be almost insignificant in comparison. China doesn’t really need to manufacture any consent domestically because it’s not the one saber-rattling for a conflict. When it comes to peripheral nations, the west mostly just says to them “do what we tell you to or else” and China mostly just says “hey, whatever, let’s just do some trading.”
Well, in a way. You’re right that all they seem to know to do is ratchet up the sanctions, but their method of propaganda is sheer saturation. Make sure that every mainstream media outlet is on board with the anti-China propaganda and steer all major social media such that “China Bad!” appears to be a unanimous consensus, and job done. And it works extremely well. The state propaganda doesn’t need to be very sophisticated itself at this point because the consent-manufacturing machine has been built, maintained, and well-oiled for a long time already.
That is a great quote and really does sum up the comparison of how the west and China each approach international relations with would-be economic partners. It’s a good demonstration for why any propaganda battle between the west and China for the approval of the rest of the world would necessarily be so one-sided. One of them has to lie and endlessly make up excuses for their actions and behavior (bullying and swindling) while the other can just calmly gesture towards their actions and behavior (equal exchange and genuine support).
When you’re in the belly of the beast, it’s easy to miss what’s going on outside. I don’t think it’s one sided, by any stretch.
The post WW2 Peace Dividend has largely played itself out, though. Our voracious appetite for extraction is costing us open ears internationally.
Like, nobody in Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Israel or even Ukraine really takes the US propaganda seriously. They’ve got their own internal propaganda that is far more compelling, and it’s often diametrically opposed to the liberal democratic line.
I think it is a mistake to think Chinese businessmen and bureaucrats are simply beyond bullying and swindling. But they don’t have the luxury of the world’s biggest military to swing around, nor do they have this ever-growing arsenal of privately developed weapons that they’re eager to exhaust and replenish.
The incentives of a communist country are fundamentally different from a capitalist state. This allows Chinese diplomats to exercise techniques that NATO states do not have the political tool bag to deploy.
It’s true. my perspective is unavoidably limited by being in an imperial core country, but is there any evidence for how China is conducting a propaganda war against the US (or at all) anywhere near the same volume or scale that the US is against China?
Yeah, I agree. But that’s what I was getting a about the western propaganda being mostly designed for their respective domestic populations, it’s not produced for the sake of the common folk of non-western countries. Is the US even attempting to make propaganda directed at the populations of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, or Ukraine? They don’t need to, since for the most part, those who rule in those countries are in alignment with US interests anyway. The liberal democratic line exists (once again) for the population within the core countries themselves. Like, the US doesn’t give a single shit that Saudi Arabia is a theocratic monarchy. Ukraine? Vassals of NATO, of course their internal propaganda is in line with the US. They would never even think of siding with China over the US and despise China anyway for not siding against Russia. Israel can’t exist without the will and favor of the US, they are a massive military outpost for the west in the middle east and are autonomous only so far as they are willing to be more openly fascist in how they go about doing what the US wants them to do anyway, the US in no way needs to produce propaganda to influence them. Turkey does at least have some differing interests than the US, but they’re still a NATO country and so far haven’t had the reason or will to rock the boat in a way that is pro-China and anti-US.
Oh believe me, that’s not a mistake I’m making. But as has been said many times, business interests (owners of private capital) in China are on a leash held by the state, in the west it’s the other way around. I don’t doubt that Chinese capitalists would swindle just as much as any other capitalists, but they aren’t the ones calling the shots, the CPC is. And the CPC has repeatedly demonstrated that they only want to do fair, equal exchange, mutually beneficial economics with other countries. They don’t need a massive propaganda machine to convince their trading partners that this is their agenda since their actions over the last couple decades are convincing enough, hence the quote you posted: “Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture.”
Absolutely.
I guess I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Techniques like equal exchange?
Every time the US visits they blow up the hospital