I’ve been thinking about martial arts and how really it is useful these days since a lot of places will have criminals hiding firearms or in the U.S. some states have conceal carry.
Whilst it contains discipline and it is enjoyable to train in a club for, say Karate, I just think it might not be that useful in places where firearms are commonly held, all it really takes is for someone to take safety off, aim, pew pew and that’s it.
I suppose I probably get this thinking from kung fu where it’s seen more of an art form then actually being a serious bone breaking form of combat
I second Cabbage. RUNNING will more reliably save your life than any amount of combat training. But also, situational awareness. Most incidents can be easily avoided simply by paying attention to what’s around you and not putting yourself in that sketchy situation to begin with.
NO.*
competition martial arts have rules. Rules that you abide by and train to follow. and inevetibably, training to fight inside these rules will invariably leave you open to certain kinds of attack, and to miss exploiting openings in the other guy. Yes. This includes MMA. You can tell that people in MMA follow these rules because nobody is biting the other dude’s balls off. or twisting them off, or generally kicking to the groin. (groin strikes were originally allowed, but then banned in UFC, for example. Too many crushed testes)
and for the record, if it’s you or them… yeah. get nibbly. You also don’t see people snapping necks or stomping skulls after a toss. It’s very rare for any kind of combat sport organization to allow things that will, you know, kill their competitors.
If you want to train for self defense… train for self defense.
*Disclaimer: Muay Thai wasn’t always a competition thing. the OG Muay Thai will absolutely fuck an asshole up. most martial arts were originally military training, and if you can get training on THAT, yeah, that’ll be fine. in the US, you’re never gonna see that, though.
Again. just to reiterate. You’re best off not getting in the situation, and that’s best avoided by maintaining awareness of what’s around you. You’re second-best off running the fuck away. Constructive Cowardice is nothing to be ashamed of- it will save your life. but, if it comes to it, and it’s you or them, don’t fight fair. Fair is how you die.
A bouncer isn’t usually going to be fighting to survive; they’re throwing some dude the fuck out of a venue, or subduing them until cops show up.
As far as my comment about Shiv Works - I stand by that 100%. Look them up. They train with bare hands, knives, and guns (firing non-lethal training munitions), and in awkward spaces (such as you might experience in a car jacking).
Any discipline that forces you to act while under pressure is going to improve your odds if you end up in a situation where fighting is your only real option. If you get sucked-punched on a subway, experience in e.g. boxing is going to be far, far better than nothing at all, despite the fact that boxing has rules. IDPA/USPSA will not, contrary to claims, get you kilt in da streets, because practice moving and shooting is better than not.
The idea that there’s a real distinction between self-defense and martial arts in general is nonsense. If you’re good in MMA, this is going to translate almost 1:1 to self defense. Here’s the blunt truth: most of the people that are going to attack a person have a LOT of experience fighting. If you want to defend yourself, you’re going to need to give yourself a lot of the same experiences, even if it’s in a more controlled setting, and “self-defense” classes aren’t going to do that.
And, BTW, I know a guy that teaches wu shu (Eagle Claw, I think?) that also works as a bouncer. He is very, very effective, and uses the things he teaches as a bouncer. He’s small–like, 5’5", 150#–and he punches well above his weight.
So, Road House isn’t realistic. bouncers (and security guards in general,) have already lost once they go hands on.
And yes, you bet your ass they’re fighting to survive.
Nobody fucks around when one mistake sends you to the ER or worse, fucking dead. Every time you go hands on, there’s always a chance some one pulls a knife or gun and ends you, maybe also everyone around you.
By the time you’re in a fight, you’ve lost control, you’ve already lost. Bouncers and guards are generally not armed in any capacity and rely instead on soft skills to descalate, and again, reacting before it gets to that point.
Further, that’s not self defense. the most useful self defense skill you can have is paying attention and not getting into a situation. The second most useful self defense skill is running away.
Uh. I know a whole bunch of people that have bounced at multiple clubs in Chicago. I know one guy that was loss prevention at a store in Chicago that used to love chasing people down, because he enjoys that shit.
Tell yourself that if you want to, but the truth is that bouncers are going to have to know how to fight to at least some degree, because they’re going to end up in fights.
Did you ask them if they got fired for being a liability nightmare? Or for driving customers away?
Cuz, I don’t know any corporate LP that would tolerate that behavior, neither do I know any owners/managers of bars, strip clubs or whatever, that would tolerate aggressive behavior.
Liability is a bitch, and the cost of one fuck up getting someone hurt is way more expensive than the loss due to shoplifting.
In a bar, you’re interacting with patrons, people you want to come back, and spend loads of money. Fights breaking out is not conducive to that; and one of the great ways to lose your liquor license is to have too many calls to police. And yes, they will be calling the police any time they have to go hands on- otherwise the subject could come back and ding your staff for assault. Remember, liability is a bitch.
Oh. By the way, this is my job. I’m a manager for contract security.
Knowing how to fight is one thing. And you’re right, it’s almost inevitable, at least across a long career.
Doesn’t change the fact that when a fight breaks out it’s almost always avoidable, and in every single interaction I’ve studied (over thousands, this is my job.) there were critical points where things could have been done differently, where a fight could have been averted.
It’s not easy and people make mistakes, but the kinds of guys that go looking for fights? Yeah. Liability is a bitch and even if the manager likes it, their insurance company will drop them like a sack of rancid potatoes.
The managers almost certainly don’t like it, though, because usually they’re interacting with paying customers, and ruining other customer’s nights. Everyone is better off handling the situation through soft skills rather than hard skills.