Breaking people out of national chauvinism and into internationalism is in my opinion the key trigger moment between sympathising with some left ideas and becoming a true actual leftist. It is the key that inoculates a person against “the tankies are evil” bullshit and finally rips them out of the hands of liberal propaganda. Once people make that transition into wanting a truly international perspective, learning things at the international level, viewing things from the position of truly seeking international socialism and so on… It is where people finally rid themselves of brainworms that have sometimes been built up for many decades.
Somewhere along that transition from national to international people undergo a personal decision of “I have a huge amount to learn” and go on that learning journey. That personal decision to actually learn is where they discard many things they thought they already knew, built up from billionaire media and propaganda.
I will keep on saying this over and over again here. The biggest thing we should be doing is pushing people to stop being nationalists and to become internationalists. Once they do this they become so much easier for us to engage with.
Sankara’s constant reminder is great but I still don’t quite know what I should be focusing on to break through this. It’s like… What creates an internationalist? What stops someone from only caring about what’s within their own borders? If we figure it out we make this all much easier on ourselves.
Helping the person realising that the international approach makes a lot more sense and is much better at explaining their lives?
So many topics now, if not basically all of them, are international in nature. Their origin, explanation and development is international in nature. Understanding why the economy is shit, why inflation, why war, why your national politics are dependant on international pressures , why ecological topics all require international understanding, etc etc. To me, the realisation that the international point of view was just better and easier to explain and understand the world forced me to learn because I wanted explanations, and on important topics (less aesthetic or cultural ones) the lazy reactionary narratives aren’t enough because they break down, don’t fit or don’t provide good solutions.
Also, interacting with the rest of the world. Talking with non-westerners about politics has always been enlightening and better, in my case. Like, at work, all the colleagues I talk politics with all the time are immigrants in some way, they have an outside look on my country and once I start talking about geopolitics and how insane the westerners are they open up and the conversations are incredibly interesting. The western colleagues sitting next to us at the coffee break always learn a lot, they see people who know what they are talking about, confidently, they see colleagues who are usually superficially shy and not too talkative (gotta be careful what you talk about as an immigrant to westerners) open up and share things about their lives and they realize there is an entire world out there they know nothing about.
I think the majority of people can be reached in some way, the difficult ones are people such as the ones on reddit or Lemmy, they are not casually reactionary, they have been deeply propagandised and have internalised those things, they defend them, they identify culturally and personally with them so its much harder.
I saw one in here recently who hopefully had a bit of an epiphany moment. They were defending the US’s actions with a “doesn’t everyone just want their country to be strong?” kind of rhetoric. But they didn’t seem to be a conscious national chauvinist, they just seemed to assume that’s what everyone was and didn’t even know there were other options.
I hope they’ve been lurking and learning since then.
We should physically tell people to come lurk. Get people into a culture of visiting daily, learning. This was a successful tactic employed by the chan sites and it worked, “lurk more” turned into people learning site culture and adhering to it.
Obviously for them it worked in getting people to adhere to nonsense ideas and behave in awful ways. But the same principle can be put to use for good instead. Personally I’d like to see something like a “7day liberal challenge”, where we challenge liberals to visit the site 7 days in a row consistently to “test their views” and surely, if their views are solid they will not waiver. For most people I think they’ll shift significantly on a lot of things through this, and many might become active users.
You know… I don’t know if it was the tipping point. That’s hard to say. But this was a major tipping point for me: knowing that all those great welfare programs in any liberal democracy would have to be funded by hyper-exploiting the global south… that shook some of the last remnants of liberalism out of me.
It’s unacceptable. That conclusion only leaves revolution and the need for a coherent theory that has been shown to work. Marxism is the theory and, to put it simply, either we all get free or none of us do. Makes it a lot easier to empathise not only with other people but also with the socialist struggle in other places. It’s more of a bridge than a stepping stone to class consciousness.
There are likely a lot of people susceptible to this view as it’s common in the west to e.g. tell kids not to waste food because there are starving people in poorer countries. It doesn’t fully make sense even as a kid. It’s well-meaning but ultimately it’s a liberal performance. It means that many, many people are hardwired to think about the damage caused by their consumption (or lack of it, here). All they need is a radical analysis to see why liberalism can’t solve the problem that they already accept and want to fix.
Not an easy task, still. In pedagogical terms, revolutionaries need to identify this and other ‘threshold concepts’. Then make them visible and comprehensible for potential comrades.
Breaking people out of national chauvinism and into internationalism is in my opinion the key trigger moment between sympathising with some left ideas and becoming a true actual leftist. It is the key that inoculates a person against “the tankies are evil” bullshit and finally rips them out of the hands of liberal propaganda. Once people make that transition into wanting a truly international perspective, learning things at the international level, viewing things from the position of truly seeking international socialism and so on… It is where people finally rid themselves of brainworms that have sometimes been built up for many decades.
Somewhere along that transition from national to international people undergo a personal decision of “I have a huge amount to learn” and go on that learning journey. That personal decision to actually learn is where they discard many things they thought they already knew, built up from billionaire media and propaganda.
I will keep on saying this over and over again here. The biggest thing we should be doing is pushing people to stop being nationalists and to become internationalists. Once they do this they become so much easier for us to engage with.
Sankara’s constant reminder is great but I still don’t quite know what I should be focusing on to break through this. It’s like… What creates an internationalist? What stops someone from only caring about what’s within their own borders? If we figure it out we make this all much easier on ourselves.
Helping the person realising that the international approach makes a lot more sense and is much better at explaining their lives?
So many topics now, if not basically all of them, are international in nature. Their origin, explanation and development is international in nature. Understanding why the economy is shit, why inflation, why war, why your national politics are dependant on international pressures , why ecological topics all require international understanding, etc etc. To me, the realisation that the international point of view was just better and easier to explain and understand the world forced me to learn because I wanted explanations, and on important topics (less aesthetic or cultural ones) the lazy reactionary narratives aren’t enough because they break down, don’t fit or don’t provide good solutions.
Also, interacting with the rest of the world. Talking with non-westerners about politics has always been enlightening and better, in my case. Like, at work, all the colleagues I talk politics with all the time are immigrants in some way, they have an outside look on my country and once I start talking about geopolitics and how insane the westerners are they open up and the conversations are incredibly interesting. The western colleagues sitting next to us at the coffee break always learn a lot, they see people who know what they are talking about, confidently, they see colleagues who are usually superficially shy and not too talkative (gotta be careful what you talk about as an immigrant to westerners) open up and share things about their lives and they realize there is an entire world out there they know nothing about.
I think the majority of people can be reached in some way, the difficult ones are people such as the ones on reddit or Lemmy, they are not casually reactionary, they have been deeply propagandised and have internalised those things, they defend them, they identify culturally and personally with them so its much harder.
I saw one in here recently who hopefully had a bit of an epiphany moment. They were defending the US’s actions with a “doesn’t everyone just want their country to be strong?” kind of rhetoric. But they didn’t seem to be a conscious national chauvinist, they just seemed to assume that’s what everyone was and didn’t even know there were other options.
I hope they’ve been lurking and learning since then.
We should physically tell people to come lurk. Get people into a culture of visiting daily, learning. This was a successful tactic employed by the chan sites and it worked, “lurk more” turned into people learning site culture and adhering to it.
Obviously for them it worked in getting people to adhere to nonsense ideas and behave in awful ways. But the same principle can be put to use for good instead. Personally I’d like to see something like a “7day liberal challenge”, where we challenge liberals to visit the site 7 days in a row consistently to “test their views” and surely, if their views are solid they will not waiver. For most people I think they’ll shift significantly on a lot of things through this, and many might become active users.
Channer culture has become a staple of the internet because they use such successful tactics for getting people to adopt the behaviour.
I think you’re absolutely onto something here.
Great idea. I’ve taken to telling a few people to come over and see what we’re like, that we’re willing to answer questions, etc.
You know… I don’t know if it was the tipping point. That’s hard to say. But this was a major tipping point for me: knowing that all those great welfare programs in any liberal democracy would have to be funded by hyper-exploiting the global south… that shook some of the last remnants of liberalism out of me.
It’s unacceptable. That conclusion only leaves revolution and the need for a coherent theory that has been shown to work. Marxism is the theory and, to put it simply, either we all get free or none of us do. Makes it a lot easier to empathise not only with other people but also with the socialist struggle in other places. It’s more of a bridge than a stepping stone to class consciousness.
There are likely a lot of people susceptible to this view as it’s common in the west to e.g. tell kids not to waste food because there are starving people in poorer countries. It doesn’t fully make sense even as a kid. It’s well-meaning but ultimately it’s a liberal performance. It means that many, many people are hardwired to think about the damage caused by their consumption (or lack of it, here). All they need is a radical analysis to see why liberalism can’t solve the problem that they already accept and want to fix.
Not an easy task, still. In pedagogical terms, revolutionaries need to identify this and other ‘threshold concepts’. Then make them visible and comprehensible for potential comrades.