Nuance moment here: I think that the ideas behind phrases like “all men are trash” and similar that are based in sort of ironic misandry often result in spaces being (usually unintentionally) hostile towards transmasc people, which is something I think we’d all like to avoid if possible.
I am simply a random intersex nonbinary woman so it’s not my place to speak on that in detail, but it’s something I’m becoming more and more aware of in online spaces.
I am going to go full gender understander here. Trans men are men and as such get the good with the bad. Enjoy the lifelong masculine urge to be a dumbass like the rest of us. Is it unintentionally hostile to our comrades to treat them as full members of our broken male species? As a cis man I am not offended by it. Should not it be the same for all men? I get it would be slightly more comfortable to deny them that flavor of manhood but it feels patronizing. Like, they have to watch an old episode of “The man show” and feel despair same as I do.
E: I just wanna clarify that I’m not trying to call you out or criticise you, I just think that it’s a place to learn and grow that people might benefit from.
I mean, this sort of concept is basically just repackaged radfem rhetoric. The idea that men are inherently bad or flawed is basically just gender essentialism, no matter how trans-inclusive you make it. People are not inherently flawed, the flaws in question are based in culture and capitalism, not inherent to men.
The point isn’t to shield or protect just trans men and other transmasc people from criticism of men, but to refocus the criticism away from “all men are trash” towards the actual problem, “capitalism and western culture pressure men to behave in toxic ways”. It’s not masculinity that is the problem, it is the cultural perception of what masculinity is supposed to be.
You can look at and analyze that culture through the lens of it being bad, but that is not in any way a condemnation of you or other men in some inherent way.
The following is based on a couple of conversations I’ve had with others, not personal experience, so other people’s mileage and experiences may vary and I’m not even passing this on firsthand: the reason that concepts like “men are trash” are particularly harmful towards transmasc people is because it implies that those flaws are an essential and necessary component of masculinity and a lot of transmasc people did not and do not participate in that particular toxic masculine culture, and essentialising it results in them being othered, saying that either they are flawed in this way or they’re not truly male.
Nah, if I am being trash let me know. I’d rather not be trash if I can help it. I do have an instinct to it.
Maybe I am conflating some things. I have known men in life to go through a phase where they wanted to “be a real man” and whatever came next was always bad. So maybe I am projecting that onto a situation to which it doesn’t apply.
I know personally I have a hard time sythizing the ideas of gender abolition and that gender identity is very important to some people. I know that perhaps abnormally so I never felt my gender identity was important so this could just be a masculine lack of empathy on my part.
I think this is kind of a you problem, to put it bluntly.
People are not inherently toxic because of their gender, and the mentality that they are is actual radfem SCUM (Society for Cutting Up Men) shit, and it serves to invalidate those that don’t fit the mold of toxicity. I think you probably are projecting something that isn’t exactly relevant, it’s not about trying to fit into toxic masculinity, it’s about not invalidating people because their experiences in life and understanding of masculinity is not inexorably tied to deliberately and intentionally performing the most toxic forms of masculinity imaginable.
Just because your identity is not something you consider deeply or regularly does not mean it is not important to you, and doesn’t mean it’s not important to others. It’s important to almost everyone, very few people simply do not have any strong identity. Most cis people just don’t think about their identity because they don’t have to: they’ve spent every moment of their lives having that identity supported and affirmed. That doesn’t mean it’s not important to you, it just means you’ve never been in a situation where it has been something you need to consider. A great example is that Amanda Bynes experienced gender dysphoria during the shooting of She’s The Man. It’s not something you think about unless you’re in a situation where, holy shit, you cannot ignore it.
blaming men for all of your problems is socialist and the more you blame men the more socialist it is.
All men are trash and it is important we say it.
Nuance moment here: I think that the ideas behind phrases like “all men are trash” and similar that are based in sort of ironic misandry often result in spaces being (usually unintentionally) hostile towards transmasc people, which is something I think we’d all like to avoid if possible.
I am simply a random intersex nonbinary woman so it’s not my place to speak on that in detail, but it’s something I’m becoming more and more aware of in online spaces.
I am going to go full gender understander here. Trans men are men and as such get the good with the bad. Enjoy the lifelong masculine urge to be a dumbass like the rest of us. Is it unintentionally hostile to our comrades to treat them as full members of our broken male species? As a cis man I am not offended by it. Should not it be the same for all men? I get it would be slightly more comfortable to deny them that flavor of manhood but it feels patronizing. Like, they have to watch an old episode of “The man show” and feel despair same as I do.
E: I just wanna clarify that I’m not trying to call you out or criticise you, I just think that it’s a place to learn and grow that people might benefit from.
I mean, this sort of concept is basically just repackaged radfem rhetoric. The idea that men are inherently bad or flawed is basically just gender essentialism, no matter how trans-inclusive you make it. People are not inherently flawed, the flaws in question are based in culture and capitalism, not inherent to men.
The point isn’t to shield or protect just trans men and other transmasc people from criticism of men, but to refocus the criticism away from “all men are trash” towards the actual problem, “capitalism and western culture pressure men to behave in toxic ways”. It’s not masculinity that is the problem, it is the cultural perception of what masculinity is supposed to be.
You can look at and analyze that culture through the lens of it being bad, but that is not in any way a condemnation of you or other men in some inherent way.
The following is based on a couple of conversations I’ve had with others, not personal experience, so other people’s mileage and experiences may vary and I’m not even passing this on firsthand: the reason that concepts like “men are trash” are particularly harmful towards transmasc people is because it implies that those flaws are an essential and necessary component of masculinity and a lot of transmasc people did not and do not participate in that particular toxic masculine culture, and essentialising it results in them being othered, saying that either they are flawed in this way or they’re not truly male.
Nah, if I am being trash let me know. I’d rather not be trash if I can help it. I do have an instinct to it.
Maybe I am conflating some things. I have known men in life to go through a phase where they wanted to “be a real man” and whatever came next was always bad. So maybe I am projecting that onto a situation to which it doesn’t apply.
I know personally I have a hard time sythizing the ideas of gender abolition and that gender identity is very important to some people. I know that perhaps abnormally so I never felt my gender identity was important so this could just be a masculine lack of empathy on my part.
I think this is kind of a you problem, to put it bluntly.
People are not inherently toxic because of their gender, and the mentality that they are is actual radfem SCUM (Society for Cutting Up Men) shit, and it serves to invalidate those that don’t fit the mold of toxicity. I think you probably are projecting something that isn’t exactly relevant, it’s not about trying to fit into toxic masculinity, it’s about not invalidating people because their experiences in life and understanding of masculinity is not inexorably tied to deliberately and intentionally performing the most toxic forms of masculinity imaginable.
Just because your identity is not something you consider deeply or regularly does not mean it is not important to you, and doesn’t mean it’s not important to others. It’s important to almost everyone, very few people simply do not have any strong identity. Most cis people just don’t think about their identity because they don’t have to: they’ve spent every moment of their lives having that identity supported and affirmed. That doesn’t mean it’s not important to you, it just means you’ve never been in a situation where it has been something you need to consider. A great example is that Amanda Bynes experienced gender dysphoria during the shooting of She’s The Man. It’s not something you think about unless you’re in a situation where, holy shit, you cannot ignore it.