Also Sodium Ion (Na-Ion) batteries are currently in production and could be a viable alternative as the technology advances and production ramps up.
Right now Na-Ion batteries rival only the LFP type of Li-Ion battery (lithium-iron-phosphate) having a lower energy density than other Lithium chemistries. LFP is used commonly in utility power storage for its much greater safety and longevity, but it carries about 20% less power for size and weight compared to other lithium chemistries.
At present the favored battery type for EVs are Lithium types with the highest energy density. Some combine several advantages of the various Li-Ion chemistries having the highest energy density with somewhat greater safety and longevity.
Na-Ion is a new type of battery chemistry with lots of potential for improvement. They use more sustainable materials being cheaper and more abundant. If they could get the Na-Ion battery type within range of presently used Lithium technologies it would be a hugely better solution, a lot cheaper, a lot safer, and much easier on the environment.
The problem with sodium ion batteries, apart from lower density, is that they have a shorter lifespan. On the upside they’re easier to recycle. IIRC there was some recent research that might fix the lifespan problem.
Is LMFP actually available in quantity? Wikipedia suggests not.
I realized that, I put an edit on there to not specify LMFP which has only been used in EVs in a limited fashion. I was confusing NMC which is actually the most common, oops. I changed it to a generic reference.
The problem with sodium ion batteries, apart from lower density, is that they have a shorter lifespan.
I’ve read differing reports on that. But yeah, cycle life is a big deal. In general it’s not great for the common Li-Ion types. LFP has pretty amazing cycle life, about five times greater and rivals the NiMH king. In many cases it’s well worth the additional size and weight, but for things sensitive to it like cars and handheld devices it’s a problem.
@rm_dash_r_star Yeah hopefully LFP for short term grid storage, maybe iron-air for long-term, though there are a few other options. Unfortunately nearly every option for long-term storage is very immature.
In any case digging up fossil fuels is also pretty dirty, and has been known to pollute indigenous people’s drinking water, steal their land, and on occasion pay for private militias and government troops to put down protests.
Obviously electric buses are preferable to electric cars. Public transport is worth investing in.
Also on batteries, iron-air is promising for grid storage, but not likely to be used for vehicles.
In any case digging up fossil fuels is also pretty dirty, and has been known to pollute indigenous people’s drinking water, steal their land, and on occasion pay for private militias and government troops to put down protests.
There isn’t much in industry exempt from that kind of thing, but countries go to war over access to oil. Anything that reduces consumption is good for mankind.
@rm_dash_r_star My point was simply that the danger to the Global South, and people in general, from continued fossil fuel extraction is greater than that from the extraction needed for the transition.
We can reduce the material demands of the transition somewhat by demand reduction etc, but we’re not comparing a new lithium mine taking people’s land to nothing. We’re comparing it to oil wells polluting people’s drinking water *and* killing their crops with droughts and floods *and* rising sea levels destroying AOSIS etc.
By all means try to do it in a cleaner, fairer, more just way. But rare earths, or even cobalt, aren’t a reason to stop the transition, which seemed to be the agenda of the person I’ve now blocked here. We need appropriate, better technology. And we can’t eliminate all road vehicles overnight, though we can reduce them somewhat.
No doubt I’m preaching to the converted now though. 😀
hopefully.
still, evs are quite expensive. also the charging infrastrucutre would require a metric fuckton of copper, and that would raise copper prices to silly levels, and its already pricey.
@zoe@ramenbellic Level 1 charging is exactly that. Just a regular plug in to a regular socket. Level 1 charging overnight will fully charge many EVs (enough charge for a week of commuting). The average car sits idle for almost the entire day so slow charging is all most people need.
Exactly, I charge 120v at 8 amps just using a standard outlet in my garage and it generally provides enough charge for my commute and errands. I’ll usually top up at the free L2 at the grocery store while charging, and rely on DCFC for road trips.
Installing a L2 charger in my garage would be a tremendous waste of money and natural resources. The only reason I would consider it is that my utility company offers very cheap Time of Use (overnight) electricity rates (2¢/kWh, vs our normal 15¢/kWh) if we installed a separate, EV charging only meter for the garage.
source: trust me bro ?
a lithium battery require also cobalt as cathode, it cant solely run on an anode
There are lots of lithium battery types that do not contain any cobalt, such as LFP that is used more and more for electric cars.
Also Sodium Ion (Na-Ion) batteries are currently in production and could be a viable alternative as the technology advances and production ramps up.
Right now Na-Ion batteries rival only the LFP type of Li-Ion battery (lithium-iron-phosphate) having a lower energy density than other Lithium chemistries. LFP is used commonly in utility power storage for its much greater safety and longevity, but it carries about 20% less power for size and weight compared to other lithium chemistries.
At present the favored battery type for EVs are Lithium types with the highest energy density. Some combine several advantages of the various Li-Ion chemistries having the highest energy density with somewhat greater safety and longevity.
Na-Ion is a new type of battery chemistry with lots of potential for improvement. They use more sustainable materials being cheaper and more abundant. If they could get the Na-Ion battery type within range of presently used Lithium technologies it would be a hugely better solution, a lot cheaper, a lot safer, and much easier on the environment.
@rm_dash_r_star @notapantsday Is LMFP actually available in quantity? Wikipedia suggests not.
The problem with sodium ion batteries, apart from lower density, is that they have a shorter lifespan. On the upside they’re easier to recycle. IIRC there was some recent research that might fix the lifespan problem.
I realized that, I put an edit on there to not specify LMFP which has only been used in EVs in a limited fashion. I was confusing NMC which is actually the most common, oops. I changed it to a generic reference.
I’ve read differing reports on that. But yeah, cycle life is a big deal. In general it’s not great for the common Li-Ion types. LFP has pretty amazing cycle life, about five times greater and rivals the NiMH king. In many cases it’s well worth the additional size and weight, but for things sensitive to it like cars and handheld devices it’s a problem.
@rm_dash_r_star Yeah hopefully LFP for short term grid storage, maybe iron-air for long-term, though there are a few other options. Unfortunately nearly every option for long-term storage is very immature.
sodium is just tech bro fluff
@rm_dash_r_star @notapantsday Unfortunately batteries with nickel are still pretty widely used. However it’s definitely going in the right direction.
https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/trends-in-batteries
In any case digging up fossil fuels is also pretty dirty, and has been known to pollute indigenous people’s drinking water, steal their land, and on occasion pay for private militias and government troops to put down protests.
Obviously electric buses are preferable to electric cars. Public transport is worth investing in.
Also on batteries, iron-air is promising for grid storage, but not likely to be used for vehicles.
There isn’t much in industry exempt from that kind of thing, but countries go to war over access to oil. Anything that reduces consumption is good for mankind.
@rm_dash_r_star My point was simply that the danger to the Global South, and people in general, from continued fossil fuel extraction is greater than that from the extraction needed for the transition.
We can reduce the material demands of the transition somewhat by demand reduction etc, but we’re not comparing a new lithium mine taking people’s land to nothing. We’re comparing it to oil wells polluting people’s drinking water *and* killing their crops with droughts and floods *and* rising sea levels destroying AOSIS etc.
By all means try to do it in a cleaner, fairer, more just way. But rare earths, or even cobalt, aren’t a reason to stop the transition, which seemed to be the agenda of the person I’ve now blocked here. We need appropriate, better technology. And we can’t eliminate all road vehicles overnight, though we can reduce them somewhat.
No doubt I’m preaching to the converted now though. 😀
hopefully. still, evs are quite expensive. also the charging infrastrucutre would require a metric fuckton of copper, and that would raise copper prices to silly levels, and its already pricey.
The charging infrastructure needed for the vast majority of BEV drivers, the vast majority of the time, is a power outlet in their garage.
this is not ur average 10 amp gauge cable.
@zoe @ramenbellic Level 1 charging is exactly that. Just a regular plug in to a regular socket. Level 1 charging overnight will fully charge many EVs (enough charge for a week of commuting). The average car sits idle for almost the entire day so slow charging is all most people need.
Exactly, I charge 120v at 8 amps just using a standard outlet in my garage and it generally provides enough charge for my commute and errands. I’ll usually top up at the free L2 at the grocery store while charging, and rely on DCFC for road trips.
Installing a L2 charger in my garage would be a tremendous waste of money and natural resources. The only reason I would consider it is that my utility company offers very cheap Time of Use (overnight) electricity rates (2¢/kWh, vs our normal 15¢/kWh) if we installed a separate, EV charging only meter for the garage.