I am not “deliberately trying to start shit with hexbear.” I did not defend war crime denialism. You guys are the ones defending the genocide against Uyghurs by China. You guys are defending the hostile acts of Russia. You guys are always attacking anything that is against the interests of socialist nations, regardless of how autocratic the regime is.
I also did not defend Nazi apologia. That is a very serious but untrue allegation that I would like to refute.
If you put yourself in shoes of the rest of the Lemmy users, you would find that Hexbears also sound like they are “deliberately trying to start shit.”
There is no genocide against the Uyghurs and continuing to lie about it is the holocaust denial you’re being accused of. You’re diminishing the term ‘genocide’ and making what the nazis did look as comparatively harmless as what China is doing. You’re doing PR for the nazis by making their crimes look less serious.
But you’ve had this explained to you a thousand times. You know what you’re doing. You’re doing it because that’s your goal, clearly.
You should honestly investigate how democracy actually works in China - You’ll find that they have far more votes and actual choices for their officials than you ever have, and the approval rate of the government, even when anonymously/independently surveyed, is almost certainly higher than your country’s.
I honestly find it hard to believe that there is any degree of democracy in a country where the government regularly silences words on its social media. The local officials (the mayor, legislators, and the president) where I live are all elected and I’m pretty sure that’s already more than what China has. Their high approval rate is due to the fact that people don’t know that their government can be better.
Your opinion doesn’t deserve to be heard though. You’re calling China a dictatorship. You haven’t done any investigation into the thing you’re talking about and are therefore speaking nonsense. Why do you want your opinion to be heard so badly? Have you done so much work on it that you’re proud to show it off to others?
There have been provided several sources for you in this very thread, yet you choose not to engage with them. Why do you think you have a right to spread misinformation?
The notion that a genocide is occurring against the fastest growing ethnic group in China is preposterous. And the second fastest is Tibetan.
Where is the evidence? Have you looked at what it really looks like when a country is genuinely abusing an ethnicity in its borders? Have you ever visited https://reddit.com/r/israelexposed ?? Why do you think Israel, a richer country per capita with smaller borders to police is incapable of hiding its atrocities but you can’t find me a single real video of anything of this shit in a country where 90% of the population has smart phones?
Oh and where are the tens of thousands of refugees?
I understand that some people may not choose to believe things unless provided concrete evidence. I respect this attitude, and I am sometimes like this too. However, to dismiss even the possibility that there might be such a thing happening is unthinkable. Do you think that Israel controls its Internet as strictly as China does? Do you think that the camp is somewhere in the city center where hundreds of people pass by it every day? Do you think that the government doesn’t prohibit people to even come near the facility much less allow them to take photos?
Oh and where are the tens of thousands of refugees?
You can’t just say “genocide denial” and pretend you’ve won the argument. You first have to actually provide proof of the genocide happening. I could also say “the Dutch are being genocided as we speak” and then call you a genocide denier when you say that’s preposterous.
It’s strange how elusive the proof for this supposed genocide is.
Youve literally been provided with several sources proving there isn’t a genocide going on, in this thread.
You have refused to engage with them. Why do you think you’re still owed civil discussion or good-faith engagement?
It is not disagreement, it’s you refusing to engage in good-faith discussion.
None of the sources conclusively prove that there is genocide, and neither are there sources disproving it completely. That of course means that no one knows for sure if the claim is true (except the Chinese government). Feel free to believe that it is false, but I am going to believe that there really is such a thing going on.
You have refused to engage with them.
I have refused to engage with them? That’s a ridiculous claim.
it’s you refusing to engage in good-faith discussion.
You sound hypocritical. You are not even in good-faith discussion.
You are asking to prove an unfalsifiable thing. The sources prove that the camps aren’t camps, that Zenz is a liar, that Falun Gong are liarsz that Uyghurs aren’t being forced to not speak their language, that Uyghurs are growing in populayion, that Uyghurs aren’t kept out of political or cultural posts. Yet you still claim it might be going on.
There is no source that indicates a genocide is going on. The story of a genocide is going on has been proven to be propagated by liars. There is no rational reason to believe a genocide is going on, there is literally nothing indicating one is going on.
You continuing to want us to treat China as if it is committing one isn’t based on one shred of fact, but instead because you feel like it might be possible. What you feel like isn’t something that inherently deserves respect. It is honestly kind of racist how you keep insisting china is commioa genocide, despite all evidence to the contrary.
I have refused to engage with them? That’s a ridiculous claim.
Instead of actually engaging with their content and acknowledging what they say, you move the discussion (as you are doing here) to one about what feel is happening.
a “genocide” with no proof is impossible. there is plenty of proof of the Holocaust, even before the Allies liberated the camps and saw the documentation of the several genocides committed by the Nazis, it was well known around the world that an extermination campaign was underway. there were Holocaust victims who were able to escape during the war and told of the genocides.
now, where is the proof of a Uyghur genocide? its all hearsay from Adrian Zenz, a guy who’s been to China once 15 years ago. now western media props him up as a “China expert” bc he tells them what they want to hear. he feeds them lies for the propaganda machine in order to stoke popular outrage against China. bc a country like the PRC is dangerous for the existence of capitalism. look at how tough China is on their capitalists. executives of a baby formula company allowed expired formula to be sold in order to turn a profit, many babies died, the executives were tried for this mass murder, and a few were executed. this is justice, real justice. state power exerted against capital is the only way to overcome capital
I am not deliberately starting shit. All I’m doing is engaging in discussions by leaving replies to comments I don’t agree with. From my observation, this is also what many Hexbears are doing. When Hexbears do this, it’s fine because they “don’t have downvotes” and “have been very active for 3 years.” When I do this, apparently I am “deliberately starting shit.”
I am well aware of the fact that my post and comment history is public.
I did not defend the apologia by Zenz. You are deliberately misinterpreting my words. What I said was although his apologia were unacceptable, that does not invalidate his opinions on other topics. To make it extra clear, I did not defend the apologia by Zenz. I also do not condone what the Nazis did. What you said in your comment is slander and hurts my reputation. I would like to politely request that you take down the allegations.
Though Lee Teng-hui did deny the Rape of Nanking, the “war crime denier” was the first democratically elected president of Taiwan, which makes him one of the pivotal figures in the history of Taiwan. I certainly don’t agree with his viewpoints on the Rape of Nanking, but I still respect him just for the fact that he brought change to the political landscape in Taiwan.
His opinions about the “genocide”? The fact that you recognise that they are entirely opinions and not facts just shows how inauthentic the claims are.
I love how you guys are intentionally ignorant of the mainstream opinion about Hexbear. You look at the servers you got defederated from, talk shit about them, and pretend that you have not lost anything of value. This is the ultimate sour grapes mentality.
I hold that it is bad as far as we are concerned if a person, a political party, an army or a school is not attacked by the enemy, for in that case it would definitely mean that we have sunk to the level of the enemy. It is good if we are attacked by the enemy, since it proves that we have drawn a clear line of demarcation between the enemy and ourselves. It is still better if the enemy attacks us wildly and paints us as utterly black and without a single virtue; it demonstrates that we have not only drawn a clear line of demarcation between the enemy and ourselves but achieved a great deal in our work.
No one here cares because they’re filled with losers like you. It is a privilege to federate with us. Blahaj was on some transphobic and ableist bullshit, so they lost that privilege.
We express our firm opposition to relevant countries’ practice of politicizing human rights issues, by naming and shaming, and publicly exerting pressures on other countries. We commend China’s remarkable achievements in the field of human rights by adhering to the people-centered development philosophy and protecting and promoting human rights through development. We also appreciate China’s contributions to the international human rights cause.
When allegations are made, the World Bank takes them seriously and reviews them thoroughly. In line with standard practice, immediately after receiving a series of serious allegations in August 2019 in connection with the Xinjiang Technical and Vocational Education and Training Project, the Bank launched a fact-finding review, and World Bank senior managers traveled to Xinjiang to gather information directly…The team conducted a thorough review of project documents, engaged in discussions with project staff, and visited schools directly financed by the project, as well as their partner schools that were the subject of allegations. The review did not substantiate the allegations.
Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat’s delegation upon invitation from the People’s Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People’s Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People’s Republic of China.
The recently published report also brings forth some interesting facts related to the religious freedom as opposed to the western propaganda. The report provides a strong testimonial by the visiting delegates who clearly state, “the in houses of worship such as the Id Kah Mosque in Kashgar, modern facilities abound, providing water, electricity and air conditioning. Local clerics told the visitors that their religious activities had been very well protected”. “The conditions here are very good,” said Abdelhalim Elwerdany, of Egypt’s Al-Gomhuria newspaper. “I could feel that local Muslims fully enjoy religious freedom.”
It’s not a ‘me’ problem. See this post on !meta@lemm.ee on whether to defederate from hexbear.net. There are about half of other lemm.ee users who also hate what the Hexbears are doing.
Lmao we treat people with differing opinions completely fine. Hexbear isn’t a monolith.
We just dont tolerate debatebros. I have yet to see someone engaging in good-faith discussion being mistreated.
Smug gotchas, refusing to engage in the arguments you’re presented with, choosing condescention and the like gets you rightly treated like a condescending dickbag. Civil discussion is a two-way street.
From what I see the entirety of Hexbears are “debatebros.” They also hold one unified opinion. I have also tried to engage in good faith discussion but some Hexbears kept spamming self-important emojis that made me felt like my good faith wasn’t being seen. Then I kinda became like the average Hexbear for commenting out of bad faith. I apologize for that.
Last time I checked you had ignored severe users posting clear and concise arguments as well as well-sourced claims, instead choosing to be condescending. When you engaged with those users you ignored their sources and arguments, instead talking about what you felt like was happening or that your opinion should be respected - despite your opinion being one of propagating long since debunked misinformation.
Your *opinion isn’t inherently one that deserves respect
Your good faith? Last time I saw you engage you ignored every source posted and either didn’t engage or went on about what you felt like or how there’s a possibility despite there clearly never having been one.
You aren’t acting in good faith.
If you wanna talk about possibilities a genocide might be occuring you’d have a lot more material to work with if you used the US or France or Ukraine. You didn’t though because you don’t actually give a shit about genocide, you’re just propagandised to hate China.
Lmao “thoughtful arguments” is when you completely ignore what is written and instead start talking about your opinion or the possibility something might be happening despite all evidence to the contrary.
There’s nothing thoughtful about your argument.
You’ve also admitted you’re just trolling, so this is just really sad.
Well I am not cool with y’all. How you treat people whose opinions you don’t agree with can definitely be improved.
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I am not “deliberately trying to start shit with hexbear.” I did not defend war crime denialism. You guys are the ones defending the genocide against Uyghurs by China. You guys are defending the hostile acts of Russia. You guys are always attacking anything that is against the interests of socialist nations, regardless of how autocratic the regime is.
I also did not defend Nazi apologia. That is a very serious but untrue allegation that I would like to refute.
If you put yourself in shoes of the rest of the Lemmy users, you would find that Hexbears also sound like they are “deliberately trying to start shit.”
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Is denying the genocide against Uyghurs (which several Hexbears did) really that much better than defending Nazis (which I did not do)?
There is no genocide against the Uyghurs and continuing to lie about it is the holocaust denial you’re being accused of. You’re diminishing the term ‘genocide’ and making what the nazis did look as comparatively harmless as what China is doing. You’re doing PR for the nazis by making their crimes look less serious.
But you’ve had this explained to you a thousand times. You know what you’re doing. You’re doing it because that’s your goal, clearly.
You are doing PR for the Chinese Communist Party. I have nothing against communism, what I am against is their dictatorship.
My goal is to… well I don’t really have a goal. All I want to do is to make my opinions heard just like you are.
You should honestly investigate how democracy actually works in China - You’ll find that they have far more votes and actual choices for their officials than you ever have, and the approval rate of the government, even when anonymously/independently surveyed, is almost certainly higher than your country’s.
I honestly find it hard to believe that there is any degree of democracy in a country where the government regularly silences words on its social media. The local officials (the mayor, legislators, and the president) where I live are all elected and I’m pretty sure that’s already more than what China has. Their high approval rate is due to the fact that people don’t know that their government can be better.
Your opinion doesn’t deserve to be heard though. You’re calling China a dictatorship. You haven’t done any investigation into the thing you’re talking about and are therefore speaking nonsense. Why do you want your opinion to be heard so badly? Have you done so much work on it that you’re proud to show it off to others?
There have been provided several sources for you in this very thread, yet you choose not to engage with them. Why do you think you have a right to spread misinformation?
How do you know that? All the evidence we can find says that China is not doing that.
Your gut is telling you they are. What could give you this instinct? It could only be rascism.
The notion that a genocide is occurring against the fastest growing ethnic group in China is preposterous. And the second fastest is Tibetan.
Where is the evidence? Have you looked at what it really looks like when a country is genuinely abusing an ethnicity in its borders? Have you ever visited https://reddit.com/r/israelexposed ?? Why do you think Israel, a richer country per capita with smaller borders to police is incapable of hiding its atrocities but you can’t find me a single real video of anything of this shit in a country where 90% of the population has smart phones?
Oh and where are the tens of thousands of refugees?
I understand that some people may not choose to believe things unless provided concrete evidence. I respect this attitude, and I am sometimes like this too. However, to dismiss even the possibility that there might be such a thing happening is unthinkable. Do you think that Israel controls its Internet as strictly as China does? Do you think that the camp is somewhere in the city center where hundreds of people pass by it every day? Do you think that the government doesn’t prohibit people to even come near the facility much less allow them to take photos?
Sorry, what refugees are you talking about?
If there is a genocide against an ethnic minority happening, there would be refugees flooding the borders of neighboring countries
You can’t just say “genocide denial” and pretend you’ve won the argument. You first have to actually provide proof of the genocide happening. I could also say “the Dutch are being genocided as we speak” and then call you a genocide denier when you say that’s preposterous.
It’s strange how elusive the proof for this supposed genocide is.
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Can’t deny a genocide that only exists in the minds of rabid imperialist westerners
Youve literally been provided with several sources proving there isn’t a genocide going on, in this thread.
You have refused to engage with them. Why do you think you’re still owed civil discussion or good-faith engagement?
It is not disagreement, it’s you refusing to engage in good-faith discussion.
None of the sources conclusively prove that there is genocide, and neither are there sources disproving it completely. That of course means that no one knows for sure if the claim is true (except the Chinese government). Feel free to believe that it is false, but I am going to believe that there really is such a thing going on.
I have refused to engage with them? That’s a ridiculous claim.
You sound hypocritical. You are not even in good-faith discussion.
You are asking to prove an unfalsifiable thing. The sources prove that the camps aren’t camps, that Zenz is a liar, that Falun Gong are liarsz that Uyghurs aren’t being forced to not speak their language, that Uyghurs are growing in populayion, that Uyghurs aren’t kept out of political or cultural posts. Yet you still claim it might be going on.
There is no source that indicates a genocide is going on. The story of a genocide is going on has been proven to be propagated by liars. There is no rational reason to believe a genocide is going on, there is literally nothing indicating one is going on.
You continuing to want us to treat China as if it is committing one isn’t based on one shred of fact, but instead because you feel like it might be possible. What you feel like isn’t something that inherently deserves respect. It is honestly kind of racist how you keep insisting china is commioa genocide, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Instead of actually engaging with their content and acknowledging what they say, you move the discussion (as you are doing here) to one about what feel is happening.
a “genocide” with no proof is impossible. there is plenty of proof of the Holocaust, even before the Allies liberated the camps and saw the documentation of the several genocides committed by the Nazis, it was well known around the world that an extermination campaign was underway. there were Holocaust victims who were able to escape during the war and told of the genocides.
now, where is the proof of a Uyghur genocide? its all hearsay from Adrian Zenz, a guy who’s been to China once 15 years ago. now western media props him up as a “China expert” bc he tells them what they want to hear. he feeds them lies for the propaganda machine in order to stoke popular outrage against China. bc a country like the PRC is dangerous for the existence of capitalism. look at how tough China is on their capitalists. executives of a baby formula company allowed expired formula to be sold in order to turn a profit, many babies died, the executives were tried for this mass murder, and a few were executed. this is justice, real justice. state power exerted against capital is the only way to overcome capital
I am not deliberately starting shit. All I’m doing is engaging in discussions by leaving replies to comments I don’t agree with. From my observation, this is also what many Hexbears are doing. When Hexbears do this, it’s fine because they “don’t have downvotes” and “have been very active for 3 years.” When I do this, apparently I am “deliberately starting shit.”
I am well aware of the fact that my post and comment history is public.
I did not defend the apologia by Zenz. You are deliberately misinterpreting my words. What I said was although his apologia were unacceptable, that does not invalidate his opinions on other topics. To make it extra clear, I did not defend the apologia by Zenz. I also do not condone what the Nazis did. What you said in your comment is slander and hurts my reputation. I would like to politely request that you take down the allegations.
Though Lee Teng-hui did deny the Rape of Nanking, the “war crime denier” was the first democratically elected president of Taiwan, which makes him one of the pivotal figures in the history of Taiwan. I certainly don’t agree with his viewpoints on the Rape of Nanking, but I still respect him just for the fact that he brought change to the political landscape in Taiwan.
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I did not defend Nazi apologia. I did defend Zenz on his opinions about the genocide against Uyghurs in China.
His opinions about the “genocide”? The fact that you recognise that they are entirely opinions and not facts just shows how inauthentic the claims are.
Not his. Theirs. The opinion of the majority of the WaPo team.
Who gives a shit about some dudes opinions about the misinformation he’s spreading?
Apparently both the WaPo and I do.
Yes, some of my comments are done with the aim of making hexbear look bad. But ultimately what’s the difference? You already look bad.
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A Hexbear calling me out for being a troll? Calling my claims rooted on dishonest bullshit? Wow.
lmao
Did I say anything wrong? Was the process democratic? Yes. Was he elected? Yes. Was his title “president”? Yes. Did this happen in Taiwan? Also yes.
By this same logic, Xi is the democratically elected leader of China but for some reason you keep calling it a dictatorship
No? Xi does not even claim himself to be democratically elected by the citizens.
Taiwan is a fascist colony and democracy is not possible until the junta is gone and western influence wiped away
Damn I didn’t know you supported the democratic people’s Republic of Korea, that’s kinda based of you
I don’t think the people of North Korea have any say in who gets to be the president/chairman/general secretary.
Judging by your post history you are definitely trying to stir shit up.
I am not.
What’s the difference? Your reputation is already shit.
Hexbear’s reputation is worse though. Look at how many instances decided to defederate from you.
you look how many of them are still federated with nazis and transphobes and tell us again how sad it is those freaks defederated
I love how you guys are intentionally ignorant of the mainstream opinion about Hexbear. You look at the servers you got defederated from, talk shit about them, and pretend that you have not lost anything of value. This is the ultimate sour grapes mentality.
And? There’s only like three major instances worth being federated with in the first place.
No one here cares because they’re filled with losers like you. It is a privilege to federate with us. Blahaj was on some transphobic and ableist bullshit, so they lost that privilege.
It’s not slander if it’s true.
Adrian Zenz has entered the chat.
A UN Resolution of global south nations: https://web.archive.org/web/20220210055246/https://undocs.org/pdf?symbol=en/A/HRC/41/G/17
World Bank Investigation of Xinjiang: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china
Organization of Islamic Cooperation praises Chinese handling of Xinjiang: https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250
https://web.archive.org/web/20201107223810/http://www.inp.net.pk/china-lauds-oics-resolution-on-xinjiang/
Egyptian media delegates visit Xinjiang: https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/430738-egyptian-media-delegates-provide-a-detailed-insight-of-the-situation-in-xinjiang
Refining this into bullet points:
You said I did a bad thing I did not do a bad thing how dare you
Your opinions are bad and you take the side of people with your opinions
I did NOT do bad thing
You should be able to recognize your hatred of us is a ‘you’ problem
It’s not a ‘me’ problem. See this post on !meta@lemm.ee on whether to defederate from hexbear.net. There are about half of other lemm.ee users who also hate what the Hexbears are doing.
They’re as shit as you
Lmao we treat people with differing opinions completely fine. Hexbear isn’t a monolith.
We just dont tolerate debatebros. I have yet to see someone engaging in good-faith discussion being mistreated.
Smug gotchas, refusing to engage in the arguments you’re presented with, choosing condescention and the like gets you rightly treated like a condescending dickbag. Civil discussion is a two-way street.
From what I see the entirety of Hexbears are “debatebros.” They also hold one unified opinion. I have also tried to engage in good faith discussion but some Hexbears kept spamming self-important emojis that made me felt like my good faith wasn’t being seen. Then I kinda became like the average Hexbear for commenting out of bad faith. I apologize for that.
are you mad that you were wrong abt China? and that the only sources you had to back you up were Wikipedia and the fascist propagandist Adrian Zenz?
Last time I checked you had ignored severe users posting clear and concise arguments as well as well-sourced claims, instead choosing to be condescending. When you engaged with those users you ignored their sources and arguments, instead talking about what you felt like was happening or that your opinion should be respected - despite your opinion being one of propagating long since debunked misinformation.
Your *opinion isn’t inherently one that deserves respect
Your good faith? Last time I saw you engage you ignored every source posted and either didn’t engage or went on about what you felt like or how there’s a possibility despite there clearly never having been one.
You aren’t acting in good faith.
If you wanna talk about possibilities a genocide might be occuring you’d have a lot more material to work with if you used the US or France or Ukraine. You didn’t though because you don’t actually give a shit about genocide, you’re just propagandised to hate China.
I never refused to engage in the arguments. I almost always replies back with thoughtful arguments.
Lmao “thoughtful arguments” is when you completely ignore what is written and instead start talking about your opinion or the possibility something might be happening despite all evidence to the contrary.
There’s nothing thoughtful about your argument.
You’ve also admitted you’re just trolling, so this is just really sad.
You have failed to engage https://hexbear.net/comment/3830376 and after this you kept spewwing the now debunked claims.
You have failed to engage zommeristleninist and cynestesia https://hexbear.net/comment/3830634
https://hexbear.net/comment/3832154 antioutsideaktion.
https://hexbear.net/comment/3832142