See, even this argument, while it makes sense in that I should utilize my money to further businesses I have moral agreement with, is another way to put the onus of paying a living wage to employees back onto me.
I sympathize with everyone pulling down a working wage, but… When I need vacation time or cost of living increases or healthcare, or whatever… Are food service personnel expected to drop what they’re doing and join me on the picket line?
The only solutions I can think of would be far more universal than me not visiting a certain taco bell or tipping 40 percent. There are billions of us. Maybe it’s time for a universal union or boycott brigade or something? Change needs to happen on a grand scale, not be argued about on Lemmy. But, we all have shit to do and it’s almost the weekend.
If there is a massive mobilization effort for enough people to stop tipping collectively I’d be on board but that doesn’t exist. So the people refusing to tip yet continuing to frequent these establishments while claiming moral highground are just hurting hard working people. I hate tip culture too but to not participate on an individual basis is inherently selfish once you understand how the system works.
Comb this thread. Find one acceptable comment explaining why they refuse to tip and how their actions help in the slightest. I agree the burden shouldn’t be on us but the solution isn’t to turn it around on other victims of this system.
Isn’t it though? If the only thing keeping that whole system running is my subsidy, which, to remind you, is intended to be a gratuity based on how I felt about the services (which people seem to forget is what the definition of a tip was supposed to be based on rules we agreed on as a society), then why not remove it and let the system topple?
For what it’s worth, I worked deliveries for quite some time, and dealt with douchebag customers and muggings, etc. I never tip under 20 percent unless you do something to thoroughly piss me off. But posts like this are ridiculously entitled to money that I frankly don’t owe anyone based on social contract.
I like how you talk, and carry yourself through this type of conversation. You word things in a way I could never come up with. If there was a way to subscribe to users’ comments, I would yours.
I think you’re missing my point, but in your defense, a lot of people are. My saying that stiffing people their tips is wrong does not mean I support the system of tipping. I would be very happy to remove it. But as it stands, it’s still the law of the land. It’s literally baked into US tax law. To not participate does not tear it down, it just punishes people who depend on it. So I don’t accept “I want to end tipping. Therefore, I don’t tip“ as a reasonable stance.
People are conflating my stance of “don’t stiff people on their tips“ with “I support tipping culture.“ That is not the case. Businesses should pay a living wage. This $2.13 nonsense is absurd.
I think it would be uncharitable to describe the crux of your argument as pro-tip given what you’ve said so far. Honestly, I’m in the same boat as you, since I still tip in spite of my own feelings about how it’s affecting us because I’m powerless to change current doctrine.
However, I would like to point out that your argument does come off as an appeal to Nirvana in my mind as it is essentially advocating we do nothing but maintain status quo because there’s no current perfect solution. I think we can both agree that if we all decided to cease tipping, this would not be an issue within a year (granted it would take untold amounts of human suffering in that short time). Of course, it also would work if we simply boycotted every establishment dependent on tips.
But, again, both of these solutions are completely dependent on us stepping in to change conditions for restaurant employees on their behalf.
To be fair, I’m somewhat in the weeds here. My primary opinion is that no one is entitled to a fanciful tip, and I’m not really here to destroy tipping culture. I’m just getting fatigued by ever increasing expectations.
I understand how it comes off as supporting the status quo, but I assure you, I do not. I am more pointing out that an individual not giving tips without any sort of a larger plan in motion is just cruelty.
To give a real world example, there are more restaurants here opening up that incorporate a service charge straight into the bill. They often itemize it very clearly for you and clearly label the tip as “additional tip.“ I’ve even had some servers point it out to us to make sure we see that. My response has been to seek out more of these restaurants when I can, because I want to reward that behavior and help institute a change.
The best thing I can do as an individual consumer is help support the restaurants actively trying to avoid tipping as we know it. It’s realistic and I get to not participate in tip culture without hurting the people who depend on it. Going “I don’t tip because it will get workers off their asses to find a better job or organize against their employers” (yes a real argument I’ve seen throughout this very thread!) is absolutely insane to me. All I can assume is they are looking for a palatable excuse for why they don’t tip without outright saying they simply don’t want to.
It’s just so ridiculous seeing all these people justify it while also saying they are totally cool to go to these places that expect you to tip. If they want to undermine these businesses then they have to stop giving them money. It’s a big ask! Don’t get me wrong. But refusing to tip and claiming it helps to end tip culture is absurd. To look at it from more from my framework: I’m not telling people never to go to these places, I’m saying “if you are going to go to them, then you need to tip.“ The only reason I’m even saying to not go to these places is because they are allegedly in favor of punishing these businesses. Well, stiffing servers their tips is not going to accomplish that.
See, even this argument, while it makes sense in that I should utilize my money to further businesses I have moral agreement with, is another way to put the onus of paying a living wage to employees back onto me.
I sympathize with everyone pulling down a working wage, but… When I need vacation time or cost of living increases or healthcare, or whatever… Are food service personnel expected to drop what they’re doing and join me on the picket line?
The only solutions I can think of would be far more universal than me not visiting a certain taco bell or tipping 40 percent. There are billions of us. Maybe it’s time for a universal union or boycott brigade or something? Change needs to happen on a grand scale, not be argued about on Lemmy. But, we all have shit to do and it’s almost the weekend.
If there is a massive mobilization effort for enough people to stop tipping collectively I’d be on board but that doesn’t exist. So the people refusing to tip yet continuing to frequent these establishments while claiming moral highground are just hurting hard working people. I hate tip culture too but to not participate on an individual basis is inherently selfish once you understand how the system works.
Comb this thread. Find one acceptable comment explaining why they refuse to tip and how their actions help in the slightest. I agree the burden shouldn’t be on us but the solution isn’t to turn it around on other victims of this system.
Isn’t it though? If the only thing keeping that whole system running is my subsidy, which, to remind you, is intended to be a gratuity based on how I felt about the services (which people seem to forget is what the definition of a tip was supposed to be based on rules we agreed on as a society), then why not remove it and let the system topple?
For what it’s worth, I worked deliveries for quite some time, and dealt with douchebag customers and muggings, etc. I never tip under 20 percent unless you do something to thoroughly piss me off. But posts like this are ridiculously entitled to money that I frankly don’t owe anyone based on social contract.
I like how you talk, and carry yourself through this type of conversation. You word things in a way I could never come up with. If there was a way to subscribe to users’ comments, I would yours.
You are too kind, and your words are definitely appreciated! I hope you have an awesome weekend.
I think you’re missing my point, but in your defense, a lot of people are. My saying that stiffing people their tips is wrong does not mean I support the system of tipping. I would be very happy to remove it. But as it stands, it’s still the law of the land. It’s literally baked into US tax law. To not participate does not tear it down, it just punishes people who depend on it. So I don’t accept “I want to end tipping. Therefore, I don’t tip“ as a reasonable stance.
People are conflating my stance of “don’t stiff people on their tips“ with “I support tipping culture.“ That is not the case. Businesses should pay a living wage. This $2.13 nonsense is absurd.
I think it would be uncharitable to describe the crux of your argument as pro-tip given what you’ve said so far. Honestly, I’m in the same boat as you, since I still tip in spite of my own feelings about how it’s affecting us because I’m powerless to change current doctrine.
However, I would like to point out that your argument does come off as an appeal to Nirvana in my mind as it is essentially advocating we do nothing but maintain status quo because there’s no current perfect solution. I think we can both agree that if we all decided to cease tipping, this would not be an issue within a year (granted it would take untold amounts of human suffering in that short time). Of course, it also would work if we simply boycotted every establishment dependent on tips.
But, again, both of these solutions are completely dependent on us stepping in to change conditions for restaurant employees on their behalf.
To be fair, I’m somewhat in the weeds here. My primary opinion is that no one is entitled to a fanciful tip, and I’m not really here to destroy tipping culture. I’m just getting fatigued by ever increasing expectations.
I understand how it comes off as supporting the status quo, but I assure you, I do not. I am more pointing out that an individual not giving tips without any sort of a larger plan in motion is just cruelty.
To give a real world example, there are more restaurants here opening up that incorporate a service charge straight into the bill. They often itemize it very clearly for you and clearly label the tip as “additional tip.“ I’ve even had some servers point it out to us to make sure we see that. My response has been to seek out more of these restaurants when I can, because I want to reward that behavior and help institute a change.
The best thing I can do as an individual consumer is help support the restaurants actively trying to avoid tipping as we know it. It’s realistic and I get to not participate in tip culture without hurting the people who depend on it. Going “I don’t tip because it will get workers off their asses to find a better job or organize against their employers” (yes a real argument I’ve seen throughout this very thread!) is absolutely insane to me. All I can assume is they are looking for a palatable excuse for why they don’t tip without outright saying they simply don’t want to.
It’s just so ridiculous seeing all these people justify it while also saying they are totally cool to go to these places that expect you to tip. If they want to undermine these businesses then they have to stop giving them money. It’s a big ask! Don’t get me wrong. But refusing to tip and claiming it helps to end tip culture is absurd. To look at it from more from my framework: I’m not telling people never to go to these places, I’m saying “if you are going to go to them, then you need to tip.“ The only reason I’m even saying to not go to these places is because they are allegedly in favor of punishing these businesses. Well, stiffing servers their tips is not going to accomplish that.