Why is that a criticism? This is how it works for humans too: we study, we learn the stuff, and then try to recall it during tests. We’ve been trained on the data too, for neither a human nor an ai would be able to do well on the test without learning it first.
This is part of what makes ai so “scary” that it can basically know so much.
You ever meet an ai researcher with a background in biology? I’ve discussed this stuff with one. She disagrees with Turing about machines thinking including when ai is in the picture. They process information very differently from how biology does
so to summarize, your only contributions to this thread are to go “well uh you just don’t know how LLMs work” while providing absolutely no detail of your own, and reporting our regulars for “Civility” when they rightly called you out for being a fucking idiot who’s way out of their depth
Well… I do agree with you but human brains are basically big prediction engines that use lookup tables, experience, to navigate around life. Obviously a super simplification, and LLMs are nowhere near humans, but it is quite a step in the direction.
oh my, you’re such a confluence of bad takes (racist, transphobic, creepy and ignorant of the technical and biological topics you’re pontificating about.)
I guess it comes down to a philosophical question as to what “know” actually means.
But from my perspective is that it certainly knows some things. It knows how to determine what I’m asking, and it clearly knows how to formulate a response by stitching together information. Is it perfect? No. But neither are humans, we mistakenly believe we know things all the time, and miscommunications are quite common.
But this is why I asked the follow up question…what’s the effective difference? Don’t get me wrong, they clearly have a lot of flaws right now. But my 8 year old had a lot of flaws too, and I assume both will get better with age.
it also demonstrates why you’re lost about the “effective difference”
I would argue that the inability of anyone here to actually defend their position as to why it’s obviously effectively different reveals that, if I don’t have a concrete idea of what’s going on, I’m in good company.
Yeah, it’s a philosophical question, which means you need a philosophical answer. Spitballing won’t help you figure shit out a priori because it turns out that learning how to think a priorieffectively takes years of hard graft and is called “studying philosophy”. You should be asking people like me what “know” means in this context and what distinguishes memory in human beings from “memory” in an LLM (a great deal, as it happens!)
It seems like you’re saying I shouldnt be asking these people because they are uneducated and have no idea what they are talking about. I absolutely concur about the latter.
But your answers to my queries are conspicuously absent.
“(…) perception, attention, thought, imagination, intelligence, comprehension, the formation of knowledge, memory and working memory, judgment and evaluation, reasoning and computation, problem-solving and decision-making (…)”
Someone in the chinese room would not know anything about their in- or output. Sure you memorized that a certain set of symbols means your output should contain another set of symbols, but what do you actually “know” about these symbols.
But you have no idea what it’s about. Is it a greeting? A recipe for some pasta? Instructions to build a bomb?
Could be anything.
I’m pretty well steeped in this question, from both a technological and philosophical perspective.
And it’s funny to see all of these posters, who are upvoting comments that expose a fundamental lack of understanding about how LLMs and ai work, acting like the book is already closed on the answer.
Because a machine that “forgets” stuff it reads seems rather useless… considering it was a multiple choice style exam and, as a machine, Chat GPT had the book entirely memorized, it should have scored perfect almost all the time.
They’re auto complete machines. All they fundamentally do is match words together. If it was trained on the answers and still couldn’t reproduce the correct word matches, it failed.
Every person who took that test was trained on the answers. Or at least they should have been, I’m sure some neglected their studies as I was guilty of myself. Are they all failures too?
They aren’t auto complete machines, they are neural networks. Why are you trying to explain it when you clearly don’t have the first idea of how things work?
the very funny thing is, all of the garden variety free text autocomplete systems I’ve worked with have been implemented using neural nets. it’s not like it’s a particularly new or novel approach. but surely the AI bros coming into this thread know that and they’re not just regurgitating buzzwords, right?
Why is that a criticism? This is how it works for humans too: we study, we learn the stuff, and then try to recall it during tests. We’ve been trained on the data too, for neither a human nor an ai would be able to do well on the test without learning it first.
This is part of what makes ai so “scary” that it can basically know so much.
Dont anthropomorphise. There is quite the difference between a human and an advanced lookuptable.
I absolutely agree. However, if you think the LLMs are just fancy LUTs, then I strongly disagree. Unless, of course, we are also just fancy LUTs.
I don’t think we are turing computable. So I don’t think we are fancy LUTs.
Heretic! Burn the witch!….wait what did they say about ….!
You ever meet an ai researcher with a background in biology? I’ve discussed this stuff with one. She disagrees with Turing about machines thinking including when ai is in the picture. They process information very differently from how biology does
This is a vague non answer, although I agree it’s done very differently because our process is biological and ai is not.
But as I asked elsewhere, what’s the effective difference?
so to summarize, your only contributions to this thread are to go “well uh you just don’t know how LLMs work” while providing absolutely no detail of your own, and reporting our regulars for “Civility” when they rightly called you out for being a fucking idiot who’s way out of their depth
how fucking embarrassing for you
Every fucking time
the report queue can be comedy gold at times
Please share!!!
ah, a civility connoisseur.
on the topic of which, this crossed my feed earlier
Nah, I’m not embarrassed by their ignorance, inability to formulate a point, and incivility. Why would I be?
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You’re asking how to tell the difference between a chatbot and a human being?
Well… I do agree with you but human brains are basically big prediction engines that use lookup tables, experience, to navigate around life. Obviously a super simplification, and LLMs are nowhere near humans, but it is quite a step in the direction.
@phoenixz @Soyweiser “Let’s redefine what it means to be human, so we can say the LLM is human” have you bumped your head?
Well, I don’t think humans are turing computable, so I disagree with you there. Which should have been clear from my initial post.
Fun fact, what you just said about how humans are just computers is also part of dianetics. Amazing how it happened in 2 different cults.
oh my, you’re such a confluence of bad takes (racist, transphobic, creepy and ignorant of the technical and biological topics you’re pontificating about.)
I dug into their post history and god you’re fucking right
░S░T░O░C░H░A░S░T░I░C░P░A░R░R░O░T░I░N░B░I░O░
irl guffaw
Do you have any foundation for that model of human sentience, apart from feels?
inb4 “it’s just, like, common sense, man”
LLMs know nothing. literally. they cannot.
Yeah but neither did Socrates
but he at least was smug about it
@mawhrin @EatATaco https://mastodon.me.uk/@pikesley/110077525298973789
I guess it comes down to a philosophical question as to what “know” actually means.
But from my perspective is that it certainly knows some things. It knows how to determine what I’m asking, and it clearly knows how to formulate a response by stitching together information. Is it perfect? No. But neither are humans, we mistakenly believe we know things all the time, and miscommunications are quite common.
But this is why I asked the follow up question…what’s the effective difference? Don’t get me wrong, they clearly have a lot of flaws right now. But my 8 year old had a lot of flaws too, and I assume both will get better with age.
nearly every word of your post demonstrates a comprehensively thorough lack of understanding of how this shit works
it also demonstrates why you’re lost about the “effective difference”
I don’t mean this aggressively, but you really don’t have any concrete idea of wtf you’re talking about, and it shows
I would argue that the inability of anyone here to actually defend their position as to why it’s obviously effectively different reveals that, if I don’t have a concrete idea of what’s going on, I’m in good company.
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Yeah, it’s a philosophical question, which means you need a philosophical answer. Spitballing won’t help you figure shit out a priori because it turns out that learning how to think a priori effectively takes years of hard graft and is called “studying philosophy”. You should be asking people like me what “know” means in this context and what distinguishes memory in human beings from “memory” in an LLM (a great deal, as it happens!)
It seems like you’re saying I shouldnt be asking these people because they are uneducated and have no idea what they are talking about. I absolutely concur about the latter.
But your answers to my queries are conspicuously absent.
no, it doesn’t, and it’s not a philosophical question (and neither is this a question of philosophy).
the software simply has no cognitive capabilities.
I’m not sure I agree, but then it goes to my second question:
What’s the effective difference?
don’t know why you got downvoted, an LLM is essentially a chinese room, and whether such a room “knows” is still the question.
no, it fucking isn’t. (see the postscript in linked article.)
Thanks for that read.
Good god it’s a hydra
don’t know why you got banned
Someone in the chinese room would not know anything about their in- or output. Sure you memorized that a certain set of symbols means your output should contain another set of symbols, but what do you actually “know” about these symbols.
But you have no idea what it’s about. Is it a greeting? A recipe for some pasta? Instructions to build a bomb? Could be anything.
I’m pretty well steeped in this question, from both a technological and philosophical perspective.
And it’s funny to see all of these posters, who are upvoting comments that expose a fundamental lack of understanding about how LLMs and ai work, acting like the book is already closed on the answer.
don’t compare your child to a chatbot wtf
The dehumanization that happens just because people think LLMs are impressive (they are, just not that impressive) is insane.
need to be able to think LLM’s are impressive, probably
surely tech will save us all, right?
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Because a machine that “forgets” stuff it reads seems rather useless… considering it was a multiple choice style exam and, as a machine, Chat GPT had the book entirely memorized, it should have scored perfect almost all the time.
Removed by mod
I feel like this exposes a fundamental misunderstanding of how LLMs are trained.
They’re auto complete machines. All they fundamentally do is match words together. If it was trained on the answers and still couldn’t reproduce the correct word matches, it failed.
Every person who took that test was trained on the answers. Or at least they should have been, I’m sure some neglected their studies as I was guilty of myself. Are they all failures too?
People are not machines.
Understood and agreed. What does this have to do with the point?
If you’re unable to follow the conversation I’m out of here.
Don’t blame me for your inability to make a point.
People are machines
You have the energy to spread misinformation and spam downvotes, how about an intelligent response instead?
How about I ban you for being obnoxious instead?
I like them rules you got here
“don’t come into our loungeroom and piss on the floor” should be simple and obvious, and yet
@dgerard @TachyonTele that rug really tied the room together, man
how about fuck off
They aren’t auto complete machines, they are neural networks. Why are you trying to explain it when you clearly don’t have the first idea of how things work?
the very funny thing is, all of the garden variety free text autocomplete systems I’ve worked with have been implemented using neural nets. it’s not like it’s a particularly new or novel approach. but surely the AI bros coming into this thread know that and they’re not just regurgitating buzzwords, right?
Don’t worry friend, you are correct.
Edit: Lets see some intelligent responses rather than downvotes. Bunch off teens majoring in “AI”.
How did you get 3 downvotes so fast on this day old post?