Air conditioners are not the best for the planet long term, but Europeans may need to care a bit more about themselves in the short term and start installing more of them.
Because for most of Europe, it wasn’t needed to have AC up until more recent years.
You would have maybe what? 5-10 days a year that were actually really warm. People wouldn’t install an AC for that.
These numbers will drastically change the coming decades.
These numbers will drastically change the coming decades
which will only make things worse, since AC just moves all the heat from indoors, out, and uses energy to work of course.
What we really need is builders to start taking the extra heat in to account and designing accordingly (there are loads of different ways to physically control the temperature of a space instead of mechanically).
Shame that’ll never actually happen…
European housing is built with a lot of focus on insulation and heat control
It’s more about also keeping heat out, as well as heat in. Which have overlap but are not necessarily the same thing. See this conversation for some more details.
Buildings with all glass façades are an insulation nightmare. Cities need more water, plants and trees. Houses need can be built to favour shadow and fressness. You can even go anciant design that were naturally cooled and winded, like roman or African houses.
I don’t know about other European countries, but France housing is a disaster the last 40 years. It’s only been a decade at best that insulation is a consideration, but the quality is quite bad.
The big change that needs to happen soon is passive heat blocking for personal residences.
Most HOAs don’t allow a big extra wooden structure over the roof to block the sun; but they’re going to need to start to keep home prices up.
But HOAs are designed to make rule changes almost impossible. So I predict we’re going to see a lot of expensive neighborhoods become cheap ones in the next 15 years, due to their HOA not fkexing to support necessary heat control structures.
This is a hairbrained idea. Nobody is seriously considering building massive wooden structures over entire home just for shade. Just focus on cool roofs, solar panels, trees, and usual weatherization.
Overall it’s still going to be a net saving as people switch from electric/gas heat to heat pumps and AC is just those but running in reverse.
And, of course, insulation. The reason we got away without AC is due to generally very large thermal mass of the exterior, you shutter everything in the morning to keep the heat out and when the temperatures drop again you open everything and let the air cool everything down. Thing is: In those recent waves there were plenty of nights where the temperature didn’t really drop.
That’s not true. While Northern Europe doesn’t really need aircon, Southern Europe is pretty bloody hot since the days of Christ. The difference is that European houses are built with insulation in mind, US houses are built from sticks and shit.
The insulation requirements in the US are higher than many European areas with similar climates. Germany for instance would fall in region 4 and 5 of the US climate wise. R-30 is required for walls, R60 for ceilings, and R20 for floors for homes in the US. Germany recommends 6cm of wall insulation ~R8, 14cm for ceiling ~R19, and 6cm for the floor R8.___
…and we don’t really have recommendations as such. KfW55 is nowadays mandatory for new construction, KfW70 and up gets you cheap loans. KfW70 means less than 45 kWh/m² per year for heating and they don’t really care how you achieve that. We didn’t really get around yet factoring cooling into stuff.
I was using freedom units for both. The R values were determined based on insulation thickness. Because you Europeans use energy consumption for your requirements it’s impossible to compare with US requirements. I did find this table giving recommendations for insulation.
Your numbers still don’t make any sense or are a century out of date or something.
The KfW also hands out loans to add insulation to existing buildings, U0.14 roof, 0.2 walls, 0.25 floor, so lowest R22.7 in Rankine land. The other numbers are for window, listed buildings, etc. All of that is minimum what’s actually recommended is well ask your architect and budget. There’s only so much that’s sensible to do when it comes to old construction as at some point hunting for air gaps and heat bridges is more bother than tearing the thing down and building new, and the KfW did set the standards sufficiently low so that currently uninsulated buildings at least get something and you can’t just tack on half a metre of insulation to an existing structure either. Mostly it’s the roof that’s missing insulation, walls tend to be defensible as they are and it probably makes more sense to upgrade the heating system.
You can back out R values based on insulation thickness, that table may be old… It didn’t have a date on it.
The values you provided equate to freedom R values of R40.5, R28, and R22.5 for the roof, walls, and floor. Those are inline or behind the US minimum requirements R60, R30, R20.
I’m well aware that AC is common to have in the south but then you’re talking about like 4 countries. Once you move north of those, it’s not all that common to have an AC in the house.
Especially since some people are pushing for lower regulations on how to build houses in some countries in Europe.
Yes, there is a housing crisis going on. But when we start to build weaker buildings because of that, we just make other problems worse.
Because for most of Europe, it wasn’t needed to have AC up until more recent years. You would have maybe what? 5-10 days a year that were actually really warm. People wouldn’t install an AC for that.
These numbers will drastically change the coming decades.
which will only make things worse, since AC just moves all the heat from indoors, out, and uses energy to work of course.
What we really need is builders to start taking the extra heat in to account and designing accordingly (there are loads of different ways to physically control the temperature of a space instead of mechanically).
Shame that’ll never actually happen…
Can you elaborate on that? European housing is built with a lot of focus on insulation and heat control, what are you referring to?
It’s more about also keeping heat out, as well as heat in. Which have overlap but are not necessarily the same thing. See this conversation for some more details.
Buildings with all glass façades are an insulation nightmare. Cities need more water, plants and trees. Houses need can be built to favour shadow and fressness. You can even go anciant design that were naturally cooled and winded, like roman or African houses.
I don’t know about other European countries, but France housing is a disaster the last 40 years. It’s only been a decade at best that insulation is a consideration, but the quality is quite bad.
The big change that needs to happen soon is passive heat blocking for personal residences.
Most HOAs don’t allow a big extra wooden structure over the roof to block the sun; but they’re going to need to start to keep home prices up.
But HOAs are designed to make rule changes almost impossible. So I predict we’re going to see a lot of expensive neighborhoods become cheap ones in the next 15 years, due to their HOA not fkexing to support necessary heat control structures.
This is a hairbrained idea. Nobody is seriously considering building massive wooden structures over entire home just for shade. Just focus on cool roofs, solar panels, trees, and usual weatherization.
If the temperature stops going up every year, you’re absolutely right.
Big if, right now
Overall it’s still going to be a net saving as people switch from electric/gas heat to heat pumps and AC is just those but running in reverse.
And, of course, insulation. The reason we got away without AC is due to generally very large thermal mass of the exterior, you shutter everything in the morning to keep the heat out and when the temperatures drop again you open everything and let the air cool everything down. Thing is: In those recent waves there were plenty of nights where the temperature didn’t really drop.
That’s not true. While Northern Europe doesn’t really need aircon, Southern Europe is pretty bloody hot since the days of Christ. The difference is that European houses are built with insulation in mind, US houses are built from sticks and shit.
The insulation requirements in the US are higher than many European areas with similar climates. Germany for instance would fall in region 4 and 5 of the US climate wise. R-30 is required for walls, R60 for ceilings, and R20 for floors for homes in the US. Germany recommends 6cm of wall insulation ~R8, 14cm for ceiling ~R19, and 6cm for the floor R8.
___You know if you muppets used sane units you’d be right. But you’re using colonial measurements.
Here’s conversion table. US R30 is equivalent to proper units R5.3, R60 is R10.5.
…and we don’t really have recommendations as such. KfW55 is nowadays mandatory for new construction, KfW70 and up gets you cheap loans. KfW70 means less than 45 kWh/m² per year for heating and they don’t really care how you achieve that. We didn’t really get around yet factoring cooling into stuff.
I was using freedom units for both. The R values were determined based on insulation thickness. Because you Europeans use energy consumption for your requirements it’s impossible to compare with US requirements. I did find this table giving recommendations for insulation.
https://www.new-learn.info/packages/clear/thermal/buildings/building_fabric/properties/insulation/images/slide4.gif
Your numbers still don’t make any sense or are a century out of date or something.
The KfW also hands out loans to add insulation to existing buildings, U0.14 roof, 0.2 walls, 0.25 floor, so lowest R22.7 in Rankine land. The other numbers are for window, listed buildings, etc. All of that is minimum what’s actually recommended is well ask your architect and budget. There’s only so much that’s sensible to do when it comes to old construction as at some point hunting for air gaps and heat bridges is more bother than tearing the thing down and building new, and the KfW did set the standards sufficiently low so that currently uninsulated buildings at least get something and you can’t just tack on half a metre of insulation to an existing structure either. Mostly it’s the roof that’s missing insulation, walls tend to be defensible as they are and it probably makes more sense to upgrade the heating system.
You can back out R values based on insulation thickness, that table may be old… It didn’t have a date on it.
The values you provided equate to freedom R values of R40.5, R28, and R22.5 for the roof, walls, and floor. Those are inline or behind the US minimum requirements R60, R30, R20.
Not saying that is the case, but 20% of Europeans with A/C could also mean that 100% of the people in the very south have it and noone else.
You’re also wrong. Mainly, It has to do with the thermal capacity/mass of the building and not with differences in insulation values.
There are pros and cons for all building types.
I’m not wrong, sorry.
https://assets.weforum.org/editor/3Vfo-4dlgdvyx-GzXP2Vam8pRqmca7-0vJBgA8hPt0M.png
Wut? God, the worse from Reddit are already here…
US houses are insulated depending on their climate zone.
Southern Italy peaks at 32C and low humidity. That is absolutely nowhere close to the heat we get in much of the US.
US houses are most definitely built with insulation in mind. That point is somehow more laughable than you not knowing your own temps.
Literally every part of your claim is incorrect.
Southern Italy peaked at over 50° C this year, and do you really think a country completely surrounded by an ocean has low humidity?
Yes, comparatively.
Also I assure you no one is making building code choices based on one year.
Dude, I’m in Tuscany which is nowhere near the peaks of southern Italy.
This is what awaits me
This matches my expectations pretty well
I said most of Europe, not all of Europe.
I’m well aware that AC is common to have in the south but then you’re talking about like 4 countries. Once you move north of those, it’s not all that common to have an AC in the house.
Wut? No one is using AC.
Your houses would be built with the same materials if you had the earthquakes and tornadoes to deal with.
No.
Especially since some people are pushing for lower regulations on how to build houses in some countries in Europe. Yes, there is a housing crisis going on. But when we start to build weaker buildings because of that, we just make other problems worse.
Yes but not necessarily in the way you think
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/25/gulf-stream-could-collapse-as-early-as-2025-study-suggests