• TWeaK
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    8 months ago

    A common saying is that a fair deal is one that neither party feels happy with, because neither one is taking advantage of the other.

      • TWeaK
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        8 months ago

        I think employees generally get such a raw deal that a fair deal would be refreshing and positive. However when you look at massively overpriced roles, eg consultants, they’d probably say it wasn’t fair to give them a fair deal.

        • unfreeradical@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          I generally agree. However, I was curious whether you had any thoughts related more directly to one of the earlier comments, concerning how fairness, within the context of employment, might be evaluated.

    • MxM111@kbin.social
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      8 months ago

      Which is what happens when a person is hired? Both parties are happy with the agreement, otherwise they wouldn’t accept, right?

      • ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.netOP
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        8 months ago

        Most people do not have the luxury of turning down a job offer, as the alternative is hunger and homelessness, which the employer uses as leverage to underpay their employee.

        If housing and basic food staples were a human right (free) only then would you see fair wages in the open market, as people would have the option to turn down unfair jobs, forcing the employer to make them fair or hire no one.

          • unfreeradical@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            Based on your own thinking, what would you understand as the attributes of a relationship or agreement that may be considered fair?

            • MxM111@kbin.social
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              8 months ago

              I think the standard way of salary negotiations (labour supply and demand) is the only way to define fair salary. If this salary is not sufficient to make decent living, and if we want to correct for that, then it should be corrected by other means, such as UBI, out of compassion or other reasons, but not for fairness reasons.

              • unfreeradical@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                How do you understand fairness, in the greatest generality, respecting agreements and relationships?

                In other words, for agreements or relationships to be fair, in any context, what conditions must be met or features must it have?

          • ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.netOP
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            8 months ago

            Well, for one; Wages keeping up with inflation and productivity would go a long way to being more fair.

            But I’m curious why you’re asking me what is fair, I already laid that out in my second paragraph in my previous comment. As I said, if the absolute basics to living were freely available, people would be free to reject unfair offers, and thus, in a theoretical ‘free market’ wages and benefits would increase to a truly fair and equal level.

            • MxM111@kbin.social
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              8 months ago

              So, your statement is that it is fair to guarantee the basic of living regardless of the person works or not. How do you respond to criticism that it is not fair to forcefully take money via taxes and spend them setting up standard of living for someone else?

              • ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.netOP
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                8 months ago

                How do you respond to criticism that it is not fair to forcefully take money via taxes and spend them setting up standard of living for someone else?

                It wouldn’t be for someone else, it would be for everyone. Most people are okay with the idea of Universal Basic Income, because everyone gets it, even the rich, it’s fair.

                Imagine applying that universal concept, but to food and shelter. It would not only help the most destitute, but also the innovators. Research has shown that people are more willing to risk becoming entrepreneurs in Canada due to healthcare not being tied to employment. Imagine if we took away the risk of homelessness and malnutrition from not working for someone else? Hundreds of thousands would now be in a beautiful position to start their own business with far less risk to their, or their families, well being.

                I would also place emphasis on the Basic part of Basic Necessities. It would only be feasible to provide just the most economical basics, which would mean a small square footage dwelling (think large apartment blocks, cheap to build, but efficient to heat and maintain), running water, electricity (with a kwh power-limit per month, anything over that would cost money), internet since it’s a required utility in the modern age, and core/cheap but nutritious staple foods. We’re not talking luxury apartments and food here.

                (Personally, I would argue Universal Basic Income is not viable within our current system, as that extra money would be quickly siphoned out of everyone’s pocket by increased rent and artificial price increases all around to capture this extra capital that would be floating around. It could only work if there were limits on rent and other basic necessities).

                • MxM111@kbin.social
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                  8 months ago

                  Being OK and being fair are different things. And I think significant amount of people, at least in US are against this, so, for them it would not be OK or fair. The reason I was bringing this up is to point on difficulty to define what fair is if it relies on things that are not fair to be implemented.

                  • ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.netOP
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                    8 months ago

                    I mean, some people are against social security, welfare, and medicaid despite how significant of a difference they have made to reduce starvation, poverty, and medical induced bankruptcy for the disadvantaged. And no matter how much evidence is shown of those societal benefits, they would reject it because it does not align with their world view or is not in their immediate interest.

                    As complete 100% consensus is generally impossible to achieve, I would argue the thing that helps the most people is generally the most ethical choice, but that’s just my 2 cents.

                    Out of curiosity, how do you think those sorts of programs being implemented would be a net-negative for society as a whole?

      • Cruxifux@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Yes, everyone loves their job and is happy with their pay for their job. You solved it bud, great work.