• Platomus
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    1 year ago

    I say “Don’t be homophobic” and you use your religion is an excuse - but I’m the bigoted one? Are you even paying attention to what you’re saying?

    I care about what happens after I die…but I care about how I leave the world and hope I made it a better place. Not for my sake, but for everyone who is still alive. You care about what happens after you die because you care about your own spiritual being, not because of other. Which one of those two sounds more moral? Making the world a better place, or actively being hateful to protect your personal afterlife?

    How would you describe the God you believe in? Everything I’ve heard is he is All loving, all powerful and all knowing. Is that correct?

    • TraditionalMuslim@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      I say “Don’t be homophobic” and you use your religion is an excuse - but I’m the bigoted one? Are you even paying attention to what you’re saying?

      It is because you are saying to drop certain beliefs in the religion. If you have a “live and let live” attitude then you should also accept that not everyone uses western values to assess moral/immoral behavior. Being gay does have harm to society and that is not me being bigoted, I am just stating what the research shows here. More importantly, a Muslim has to submit to the wisdom and divine knowledge of Allah through the Quran. There might be things in it that don’t sit well with you but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It is because you don’t fully understand the bigger picture here and how something will benefit or harm society one way or another.

      I care about what happens after I die…but I care about how I leave the world and hope I made it a better place. Not for my sake, but for everyone who is still alive. You care about what happens after you die because you care about your own spiritual being, not because of other. Which one of those two sounds more moral? Making the world a better place, or actively being hateful to protect your personal afterlife?

      But what about yourself after you die? You may try to benefit the people you interact with but at the end of the day you are going to be gone from this world and the people a generation or two won’t remember you anymore. I’m not saying to not do good things, as Muslims we’re obliged to give charity, be kind to our neighbors, respect our parents, etc. But these actions are meaningless without the right intentions. We were created to worship Allah, that is our ultimate purpose. Allah created you, your family, your friends, this world, and the universe. Everything ultimately leads back to Him. So why would I not be grateful to my Lord and follow His commandments that will benefit me and the people in this life and the next?

      How would you describe the God you believe in? Everything I’ve heard is he is All loving, all powerful and all knowing. Is that correct?

      Yes that is all true. Those are His attributes but the most important thing to know about Allah is that He is One and Unique, Self-Sufficient, neither has a beginning nor end, and there is no one equal to Him. There are a lot of descriptions of Allah like The Most-Merciful, The Creator, The Providor, The Ultimate Judge, etc. You can find a list of His descriptions here: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Islam

      • Platomus
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        1 year ago

        So he’s all good? Why did he create evil then?

        If he didn’t and evil was created by human sin, then him being all powerful should be able to stop it. Why hasn’t he stopped evil?

        • TraditionalMuslim@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          So he’s all good? Why did he create evil then?

          What is your standard for what is good and evil? Obviously, I can make the general assumption that murder, theft, rape, poverty, suffering, death, etc. are evil but where do you derive these things from? Saying there is good and evil implies there is an objective standard for that. But in anti-theism, there isn’t one. The same can be said about human rights, the idea of human rights stems from the belief that all humans were created equal from a creator. Which goes against the idea of anti-theism in the first place because there is no creator in that world view. I’m surprised not all atheists/anti-theists are not nihilistic because that is what you ultimately reach if you take things to their logical conclusion.

          To answer your question, Allah knows best. Life is a test and it will be filled with trials and tribulations. You will face difficulties in life and how you approach these difficulties determines your rank in the sight of Allah. Allah has the bigger picture here and we only know a tiny fraction of what He has revealed to us. No one can say exactly why, all we can give are reasons to the best of our ability. But ultimately, Allah is All-Knowing and All-Wise so whatever He has created has wisdom behind it which we are not necessarily aware of.

          If he didn’t and evil was created by human sin, then him being all powerful should be able to stop it. Why hasn’t he stopped evil?

          Allah gives free will to human beings. They can choose to believe and follow the laws of Allah or disbelieve and do as they please. In the end, all of creation will be judged on the Day of Judgement. Every single deed someone has done in this world will be for or against them. All the evil someone may have done, they will be held accountable for it and dealt with accordingly. The victim of these evils will be rewarded and compensated for their patience and forbearance in this world. There will be no injustice on that day.

          • Platomus
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            1 year ago

            You’re presupposing that a creator is needed for morals. Why?

            You’re presupposing that there needs to be an objective standard for morals and good and evil. Why?

            If God knows all, why does he need a test?

            Why do a Judgement Day if he knows all? Why wait?

            I have a feeling a majority of your answers are going to be something like: “He works in mysterious ways. He knows things we don’t.”

            But wouldn’t an all loving, all knowing, all powerful being tell us why? I don’t let my daughter walk into traffic to test her, to see if she will do the right thing. It would be unloving of me to let her get hurt. But when God gives someone a painful illness, that’s not love.

            • TraditionalMuslim@reddthat.com
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              1 year ago

              You’re presupposing that a creator is needed for morals. Why?

              Yes because who are we to say what is good and what is not? If there no creator thenvevery person, every society would had different standards for morality.

              You’re presupposing that there needs to be an objective standard for morals and good and evil. Why?

              Yes, because then we wouldn’t be bickering about whether homosexuality is evil or not. If we all have different standards for morality, then are you supposing each person should just act upon what they believe is moral or not?

              If God knows all, why does he need a test?

              Again Allah knows best. But in the Quran He mentions that He created life and death to test which of you is best in deed. He also mentions that do you think you will enter Paradise before Allah tests you?

              This question about why man-kind was created is even posed by the Angels of Allah.

              Quran - Al-Baqarah 2:30

              وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَٰٓئِكَةِ إِنِّى جَاعِلٌ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةًۖ قَالُوٓا۟ أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ ٱلدِّمَآءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَۖ قَالَ إِنِّىٓ أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

              English - Mohsin Khan/Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali

              And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth.” They said: “Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.” He (Allâh) said: “I know that which you do not know.”

              Why do a Judgement Day if he knows all? Why wait?

              Mentioned before, to test those who are best in deed. Paradise is given to whoever Allah wishes but it is those that earned the pleasure of Allah that are most deserving of it.

              I have a feeling a majority of your answers are going to be something like: “He works in mysterious ways. He knows things we don’t.”

              Well yes, since Allah is All-Knowing and All-Powerful, how can you judge Allah when you don’t know much about Him? Since He is All-Knowing, All-Wise, All-Just then you know whatever He does is in accordance to His attributes. It’s us that don’t get the picture here. We only know the pixel. A small fraction.

              But wouldn’t an all loving, all knowing, all powerful being tell us why? I don’t let my daughter walk into traffic to test her, to see if she will do the right thing. It would be unloving of me to let her get hurt. But when God gives someone a painful illness, that’s not love.

              Some calmaties and tests are there to save you from an even bigger calamity. Trials and tribulations also purify you, increase your faith, and bearing through them with patience will forgives your sins. Allah tests people differently according to their circumstances and will never test you with something you could not bear through. Also just because you are tested with difficulties does not mean that Allah hates you and vice-versa.

              • Platomus
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                1 year ago

                What do you mean who are we to say what is good or not? That’s presupposing that God exists without any support.

                Your using circular reasoning. You can’t say “Obviously he exist because we’re having a conversation about his ethics.” That isn’t support. That isn’t anything.

                Unicorns are important for the ecosystem. There, now that I’ve stated that - unicorns exist by that same logic.

                You can’t use your religious book to support your idea. That again is presupposing the book is true before any support has been given. Again, that’s basically me saying “Harry Potter is a book about wizards - that must mean Hogwarts is real.” Just because a book says something doesn’tean it’s true without any other support.

                Quotes from your religious book mean nothing to me and give no support for your point.

                I can judge him based on his actions. You claim everything is by his design. I’m going to base him off that. Why does he torture children in painful ways? Why does he allow abuse? Why does he allow terrible things to happen? He can’t be all good, all powerful and all know and allow that, and have that part of his divine plan. A good God wouldn’t allow that.

                Why didn’t he create us in a way that understands? Was he not powerful enough to communicate it to us? There’s no point in giving people a test that is unsolvable. He already knows everyone’s true heart right? Then he already knows the results of the test before he even gives it. Meaning he created people just to be damned, knowing they could never pass his tests.

                • TraditionalMuslim@reddthat.com
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                  1 year ago

                  What do you mean who are we to say what is good or not? That’s presupposing that God exists without any support. Your using circular reasoning. You can’t say “Obviously he exist because we’re having a conversation about his ethics.” That isn’t support. That isn’t anything.

                  Like I said, are you saying we should all just follow our own morals based on our desires? Your saying that there’s no need for objective morality then that means society can’t function. Everyone will just follow his own rules and do whatever he wishes and make justification for it. We should start killing the elderly and terminally ill because they are a waste of resources and provide no value to society. We should also only breed smart people with smart people so that we can ensure the next generation isn’f supider than the previous. And if you allow me to follow my own morals then gay people should be in mental hospitals. You see the problem here? No God, means no objective morality, which means nothing is “true”. You are not any less right or wrong than I am because at the end of the day, there is no right answer.

                  Going back to how this conversation started, your points on homphobia don’t mean anything to anyone who doesn’t care about that. So how about you stop pretending to be “moral” because you clearly don’t even know what that really means.

                  You can’t use your religious book to support your idea. That again is presupposing the book is true before any support has been given. Again, that’s basically me saying “Harry Potter is a book about wizards - that must mean Hogwarts is real.” Just because a book says something doesn’tean it’s true without any other support.

                  Yes I can because it is from God. You don’t believe that despite the evidence I gave previously but you are so close-minded you don’t even want to consider the possibility of a creator because you already made up your mind that you are “anti-theist”. Which is just as stupid as someone who blind follows without evidence because you are presupposing that God doesn’t exist just like how you complain about others presupposing that God exists. Where else am I supposed to get objective morality from besides the One who created this universe and the entirety of existence?

                  I can judge him based on his actions. You claim everything is by his design. I’m going to base him off that. Why does he torture children in painful ways? Why does he allow abuse? Why does he allow terrible things to happen? He can’t be all good, all powerful and all know and allow that, and have that part of his divine plan. A good God wouldn’t allow that.

                  Again you never defined what good and evil is. You’re talking about all these “terrible” things but these things don’t exist in your world-view because morality is never defined.

                  He can’t be all good, all powerful and all know and allow that, and have that part of his divine plan. A good God wouldn’t allow that.

                  Why not? You think you know more? Your puny brain is going to try understand the will of the All-Knowing and All-Wise? Give me a break. You are setting limits on God which don’t exist. God isn’t going to follow what you like and don’t like. You are His servant, not the other way around.

                  Why didn’t he create us in a way that understands? Was he not powerful enough to communicate it to us? There’s no point in giving people a test that is unsolvable. He already knows everyone’s true heart right? Then he already knows the results of the test before he even gives it. Meaning he created people just to be damned, knowing they could never pass his tests.

                  Like I said, He will never test you with something you can’t bear. Who said any of these problems were unsolvable? There is a light at the end of the tunnel and that will be on Judgement Day. You’ll know what happened, why it happened, etc. Allah knows everyone’s destiny but gives everyone the freewill to act out their own destiny. Why? Allah knows best. Like I said, even the Angels don’t know why. Why human beings were created, why Allah tested us even though He knows the end result. You’ll know all these in the afterlife. And this ambiguity is also part of the test. If you know Allah is All-Knowing and All-Wise then you should trust His plan.

                  • Platomus
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                    1 year ago

                    Like I said, are you saying we should all just follow our own morals based on our desires?

                    Where did I say morals get based off of desires? Morals have to do with behaviors and what is acceptable or not - not desires. Your, again, presupposing an argument onto me. I never said such a thing.

                    My morals don’t align with my desires. I love ice cream, but I don’t steal ice cream just because I love it.

                    What you’re doing now is all “The appeal to God.” Basically if you can’t explain something, you believe it’s God.

                    Everyone will just follow his own rules and do whatever he wishes and make justification for it.

                    Wouldn’t that mean non-religous people do that now? People who don’t agree with your religion would already be this way right? So why aren’t they? You’re acting like individuals DON’T have fee will. That they’re slaves to their desires. People aren’t, people have humility, people have generosity, all without being religious.

                    We should start killing the elderly and terminally ill because they are a waste of resources and provide no value to society.

                    This just feels like a self report of your own internal feelings. Are you saying you would want to kill people if you were religious? That’s all you man. I don’t want anyone to die.

                    And if you allow me to follow my own morals then gay people should be in mental hospitals.

                    This is 100% a self report. Why would gay people be put in mental hospitals? That’s just what YOU want - which has been influenced by your religion.

                    You don’t believe that despite the evidence I gave previously but you are so close-minded you don’t even want to consider the possibility of a creator because you already made up your mind that you are “anti-theist”.

                    What evidence? So far you’re only response to Amy of my questions is “God works in mysterious ways.” I even called it out before you said it. It’s not an answer - it’s literally saying “there is no answer.” I don’t have negative opinions about religion because I’m anti-theist. I have negative opinions about religion because there is no evidence it’s true and it activity hurts society - which then classifies me as anti-theist.

                    You’re also using circular reasoning. “The book is real because it comes from God, but God is real because the book says so.” Harry Potter’s book says he’s real. He’s a wizard, so you know he’s powerful enough to be real - his book says so.

                    Which is just as stupid as someone who blind follows without evidence because you are presupposing that God doesn’t exist just like how you complain about others presupposing that God exists.

                    I’m not presupposing God isn’t real - I’m asking for evidence he is and you aren’t giving any. I even said if he is real, he isn’t the good guy. You clearly have had these types of discussions before and are now projecting arguments onto me.

                    Where else am I supposed to get objective morality from besides the One who created this universe and the entirety of existence?

                    Again, why do morals need to be objective? They aren’t. Is it wrong to steal? Yeah. Is it morally wrong to steal from a man who stole the wealth of a nation to ffes your family? No. There is no such thing as “objective” morality. It’s all subjective and contextual.

                    Again you never defined what good and evil is. You’re talking about all these “terrible” things but these things don’t exist in your world-view because morality is never defined.

                    Uhhh, yes I did? I listed abuse, I listed illness. So you’re just ignoring what I write now. I didn’t even ask about good or evil here, I asked why would a good God allow that - youre the one claiming hes good, it’s you’re job to justify how you think abusing kids is good. You’re playing a semantics game, instead of answering, you’re falling back onto the pretending to not know the meaning of words.

                    Why not? You think you know more? Your puny brain is going to try understand the will of the All-Knowing and All-Wise? Give me a break. You are setting limits on God which don’t exist. God isn’t going to follow what you like and don’t like. You are His servant, not the other way around.

                    God has no limits but allows terrible things (like I listed above). That makes him not good. This is just another semantics move.

                    Like I said, He will never test you with something you can’t bear. Who said any of these problems were unsolvable?

                    What does this even mean? I was sexually abused as a teenager. I went to my parents for help and they did nothing. After it happened, what was the solution, how do you “solve” solve that?

                    Allah knows everyone’s destiny but gives everyone the freewill to act out their own destiny.

                    These are opposites. He can’t have a planned destiny and give people free will.

                    Allah knows best. Like I said, even the Angels don’t know why. Why human beings were created, why Allah tested us even though He knows the end result. You’ll know all these in the afterlife. And this ambiguity is also part of the test. If you know Allah is All-Knowing and All-Wise then you should trust His plan.

                    Right… So that would make him a bad person. If a parents punished his kids without telling them why, he’s a bad parents. If a parent leaves a child to get hurt, that’s a bad parent. This just supports my point that even if your God is real, he’s the bad guy and doesn’t deserve to be praised.