You’re presupposing that a creator is needed for morals. Why?
Yes because who are we to say what is good and what is not? If there no creator thenvevery person, every society would had different standards for morality.
You’re presupposing that there needs to be an objective standard for morals and good and evil. Why?
Yes, because then we wouldn’t be bickering about whether homosexuality is evil or not. If we all have different standards for morality, then are you supposing each person should just act upon what they believe is moral or not?
If God knows all, why does he need a test?
Again Allah knows best. But in the Quran He mentions that He created life and death to test which of you is best in deed. He also mentions that do you think you will enter Paradise before Allah tests you?
This question about why man-kind was created is even posed by the Angels of Allah.
And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth.” They said: “Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.” He (Allâh) said: “I know that which you do not know.”
Why do a Judgement Day if he knows all? Why wait?
Mentioned before, to test those who are best in deed. Paradise is given to whoever Allah wishes but it is those that earned the pleasure of Allah that are most deserving of it.
I have a feeling a majority of your answers are going to be something like: “He works in mysterious ways. He knows things we don’t.”
Well yes, since Allah is All-Knowing and All-Powerful, how can you judge Allah when you don’t know much about Him? Since He is All-Knowing, All-Wise, All-Just then you know whatever He does is in accordance to His attributes. It’s us that don’t get the picture here. We only know the pixel. A small fraction.
But wouldn’t an all loving, all knowing, all powerful being tell us why? I don’t let my daughter walk into traffic to test her, to see if she will do the right thing. It would be unloving of me to let her get hurt. But when God gives someone a painful illness, that’s not love.
Some calmaties and tests are there to save you from an even bigger calamity. Trials and tribulations also purify you, increase your faith, and bearing through them with patience will forgives your sins. Allah tests people differently according to their circumstances and will never test you with something you could not bear through. Also just because you are tested with difficulties does not mean that Allah hates you and vice-versa.
What do you mean who are we to say what is good or not? That’s presupposing that God exists without any support.
Your using circular reasoning. You can’t say “Obviously he exist because we’re having a conversation about his ethics.” That isn’t support. That isn’t anything.
Unicorns are important for the ecosystem. There, now that I’ve stated that - unicorns exist by that same logic.
You can’t use your religious book to support your idea. That again is presupposing the book is true before any support has been given. Again, that’s basically me saying “Harry Potter is a book about wizards - that must mean Hogwarts is real.” Just because a book says something doesn’tean it’s true without any other support.
Quotes from your religious book mean nothing to me and give no support for your point.
I can judge him based on his actions. You claim everything is by his design. I’m going to base him off that. Why does he torture children in painful ways? Why does he allow abuse? Why does he allow terrible things to happen? He can’t be all good, all powerful and all know and allow that, and have that part of his divine plan. A good God wouldn’t allow that.
Why didn’t he create us in a way that understands? Was he not powerful enough to communicate it to us? There’s no point in giving people a test that is unsolvable. He already knows everyone’s true heart right? Then he already knows the results of the test before he even gives it. Meaning he created people just to be damned, knowing they could never pass his tests.
What do you mean who are we to say what is good or not? That’s presupposing that God exists without any support.
Your using circular reasoning. You can’t say “Obviously he exist because we’re having a conversation about his ethics.” That isn’t support. That isn’t anything.
Like I said, are you saying we should all just follow our own morals based on our desires? Your saying that there’s no need for objective morality then that means society can’t function. Everyone will just follow his own rules and do whatever he wishes and make justification for it. We should start killing the elderly and terminally ill because they are a waste of resources and provide no value to society. We should also only breed smart people with smart people so that we can ensure the next generation isn’f supider than the previous. And if you allow me to follow my own morals then gay people should be in mental hospitals. You see the problem here? No God, means no objective morality, which means nothing is “true”. You are not any less right or wrong than I am because at the end of the day, there is no right answer.
Going back to how this conversation started, your points on homphobia don’t mean anything to anyone who doesn’t care about that. So how about you stop pretending to be “moral” because you clearly don’t even know what that really means.
You can’t use your religious book to support your idea. That again is presupposing the book is true before any support has been given. Again, that’s basically me saying “Harry Potter is a book about wizards - that must mean Hogwarts is real.” Just because a book says something doesn’tean it’s true without any other support.
Yes I can because it is from God. You don’t believe that despite the evidence I gave previously but you are so close-minded you don’t even want to consider the possibility of a creator because you already made up your mind that you are “anti-theist”. Which is just as stupid as someone who blind follows without evidence because you are presupposing that God doesn’t exist just like how you complain about others presupposing that God exists.
Where else am I supposed to get objective morality from besides the One who created this universe and the entirety of existence?
I can judge him based on his actions. You claim everything is by his design. I’m going to base him off that. Why does he torture children in painful ways? Why does he allow abuse? Why does he allow terrible things to happen? He can’t be all good, all powerful and all know and allow that, and have that part of his divine plan. A good God wouldn’t allow that.
Again you never defined what good and evil is. You’re talking about all these “terrible” things but these things don’t exist in your world-view because morality is never defined.
He can’t be all good, all powerful and all know and allow that, and have that part of his divine plan. A good God wouldn’t allow that.
Why not? You think you know more? Your puny brain is going to try understand the will of the All-Knowing and All-Wise? Give me a break. You are setting limits on God which don’t exist. God isn’t going to follow what you like and don’t like. You are His servant, not the other way around.
Why didn’t he create us in a way that understands? Was he not powerful enough to communicate it to us? There’s no point in giving people a test that is unsolvable. He already knows everyone’s true heart right? Then he already knows the results of the test before he even gives it. Meaning he created people just to be damned, knowing they could never pass his tests.
Like I said, He will never test you with something you can’t bear. Who said any of these problems were unsolvable? There is a light at the end of the tunnel and that will be on Judgement Day. You’ll know what happened, why it happened, etc. Allah knows everyone’s destiny but gives everyone the freewill to act out their own destiny. Why? Allah knows best. Like I said, even the Angels don’t know why. Why human beings were created, why Allah tested us even though He knows the end result. You’ll know all these in the afterlife. And this ambiguity is also part of the test. If you know Allah is All-Knowing and All-Wise then you should trust His plan.
Like I said, are you saying we should all just follow our own morals based on our desires?
Where did I say morals get based off of desires? Morals have to do with behaviors and what is acceptable or not - not desires. Your, again, presupposing an argument onto me. I never said such a thing.
My morals don’t align with my desires. I love ice cream, but I don’t steal ice cream just because I love it.
What you’re doing now is all “The appeal to God.” Basically if you can’t explain something, you believe it’s God.
Everyone will just follow his own rules and do whatever he wishes and make justification for it.
Wouldn’t that mean non-religous people do that now? People who don’t agree with your religion would already be this way right? So why aren’t they? You’re acting like individuals DON’T have fee will. That they’re slaves to their desires. People aren’t, people have humility, people have generosity, all without being religious.
We should start killing the elderly and terminally ill because they are a waste of resources and provide no value to society.
This just feels like a self report of your own internal feelings. Are you saying you would want to kill people if you were religious? That’s all you man. I don’t want anyone to die.
And if you allow me to follow my own morals then gay people should be in mental hospitals.
This is 100% a self report. Why would gay people be put in mental hospitals? That’s just what YOU want - which has been influenced by your religion.
You don’t believe that despite the evidence I gave previously but you are so close-minded you don’t even want to consider the possibility of a creator because you already made up your mind that you are “anti-theist”.
What evidence? So far you’re only response to Amy of my questions is “God works in mysterious ways.” I even called it out before you said it. It’s not an answer - it’s literally saying “there is no answer.” I don’t have negative opinions about religion because I’m anti-theist. I have negative opinions about religion because there is no evidence it’s true and it activity hurts society - which then classifies me as anti-theist.
You’re also using circular reasoning. “The book is real because it comes from God, but God is real because the book says so.” Harry Potter’s book says he’s real. He’s a wizard, so you know he’s powerful enough to be real - his book says so.
Which is just as stupid as someone who blind follows without evidence because you are presupposing that God doesn’t exist just like how you complain about others presupposing that God exists.
I’m not presupposing God isn’t real - I’m asking for evidence he is and you aren’t giving any. I even said if he is real, he isn’t the good guy. You clearly have had these types of discussions before and are now projecting arguments onto me.
Where else am I supposed to get objective morality from besides the One who created this universe and the entirety of existence?
Again, why do morals need to be objective? They aren’t. Is it wrong to steal? Yeah. Is it morally wrong to steal from a man who stole the wealth of a nation to ffes your family? No. There is no such thing as “objective” morality. It’s all subjective and contextual.
Again you never defined what good and evil is. You’re talking about all these “terrible” things but these things don’t exist in your world-view because morality is never defined.
Uhhh, yes I did? I listed abuse, I listed illness. So you’re just ignoring what I write now. I didn’t even ask about good or evil here, I asked why would a good God allow that - youre the one claiming hes good, it’s you’re job to justify how you think abusing kids is good. You’re playing a semantics game, instead of answering, you’re falling back onto the pretending to not know the meaning of words.
Why not? You think you know more? Your puny brain is going to try understand the will of the All-Knowing and All-Wise? Give me a break. You are setting limits on God which don’t exist. God isn’t going to follow what you like and don’t like. You are His servant, not the other way around.
God has no limits but allows terrible things (like I listed above). That makes him not good. This is just another semantics move.
Like I said, He will never test you with something you can’t bear. Who said any of these problems were unsolvable?
What does this even mean? I was sexually abused as a teenager. I went to my parents for help and they did nothing. After it happened, what was the solution, how do you “solve” solve that?
Allah knows everyone’s destiny but gives everyone the freewill to act out their own destiny.
These are opposites. He can’t have a planned destiny and give people free will.
Allah knows best. Like I said, even the Angels don’t know why. Why human beings were created, why Allah tested us even though He knows the end result. You’ll know all these in the afterlife. And this ambiguity is also part of the test. If you know Allah is All-Knowing and All-Wise then you should trust His plan.
Right… So that would make him a bad person. If a parents punished his kids without telling them why, he’s a bad parents. If a parent leaves a child to get hurt, that’s a bad parent. This just supports my point that even if your God is real, he’s the bad guy and doesn’t deserve to be praised.
Where did I say morals get based off of desires? Morals have to do with behaviors and what is acceptable or not - not desires. Your, again, presupposing an argument onto me. I never said such a thing.
I’m going to ask you again. What are your morals based off of? You said abuse and illness is bad. Why? You don’t know why, you just have a feeling it is. Care to explain morality for me please? I’m not playing a semantics game, I’m playing a definitions game because if you don’t even know what you are talking about, then it’s not worth discussing it.
What you’re doing now is all “The appeal to God.” Basically if you can’t explain something, you believe it’s God.
I’m talking about morality here. If there is no God, morality does not exist period. You can’t make morality out of nothing. Like you said it will be subjective and contexual. So what you are really saying is there is no right answer and there are no universal morals. So if you do believe that then stop criticizing those that don’t align with your morals because at the end of the day, they are just as right as you are. So your entire argument against me on homophobia and bigotry is meaningless because you can’t say I’m right or wrong because all morals are subjective.
Wouldn’t that mean non-religous people do that now? People who don’t agree with your religion would already be this way right? So why aren’t they? You’re acting like individuals DON’T have fee will. That they’re slaves to their desires. People aren’t, people have humility, people have generosity, all without being religious.
Non-religious people already are following their own morals based off desires. Allowing alcohol, marijuana, homosexuality, etc. All these things have been scientifically proven to have negative effects on individuals and yet people still continue to do them. So no, people are in fact slaves to their own desires. I never said they didn’t have free will. Their free will is following their own desires. If you have no purpose in life like non-religious people, what else would you do besides that? People having humility and generosity without faith doesn’t make sense either. Why would someone do that unless they stand to gain something? Maybe a better community? People would praise them more? You can’t do something for the sake of doing it without any good reason. If you do, then you are no different from an animal. Maybe even worse because at least an animal would do things for self-preservation. All these things like humility and generosity without reason is just for people to feel better about themselves.
Uhhh, yes I did? I listed abuse, I listed illness. So you’re just ignoring what I write now. I didn’t even ask about good or evil here, I asked why would a good God allow that - youre the one claiming hes good, it’s you’re job to justify how you think abusing kids is good. You’re playing a semantics game, instead of answering, you’re falling back onto the pretending to not know the meaning of words.
Like I said in my first paragraph, can you explain why these things are evil? It is your subjective morality, why should I bother arguing if you believe everyone has their own morals? If my answer about Allah allowing things to happen and all happenings are predestined (Qadr). And He is All-Wise and All-Powerful. And you don’t trust His plan. Then that’s on you. I don’t have to justify His actions if you don’t like them. I’m not a prophet. If you want to talk about the divine nature of the Quran, we can do that. My evidence I gave previously is referring to the preservation of the Quran. Can you name any other sacred text with this level of preservation? No. So don’t write off all religions as the same in your head because that is just showing your ignorance in the field. If you don’t want to talk about the Quran then you won’t understand the foundation of my arguments.
This just feels like a self report of your own internal feelings. Are you saying you would want to kill people if you were religious? That’s all you man. I don’t want anyone to die.
Self-report? I thought you cared about the greater good. If you don’t want anyone to die, why? The world will be better off with the elderly and terminally ill gone. Can you explain why that is a moral dilemma for you? I don’t believe in these things because I get my morality from Islam. But you have your own morals from some arbitrary criteria you set for yourself and can be argued against. This entire time you have never explained why you believe in the things you believe in. On the other hand, I’ve explained all the things I believe in and why. If you don’t like the answers, that’s a different story but I’m explaining God’s nature through His attributes. If you don’t see the wisdom in His actions, that’s your problem. I also don’t claim to know everything about why God does certain things but He explains Himself that He knows more than we do. So trust His plan if you truly believe.
This is 100% a self report. Why would gay people be put in mental hospitals? That’s just what YOU want - which has been influenced by your religion.
Yes I believe in these things because of my religion. What’s wrong with that? Morality is subjective remember.
What evidence? So far you’re only response to Amy of my questions is “God works in mysterious ways.” I even called it out before you said it. It’s not an answer - it’s literally saying “there is no answer.” I don’t have negative opinions about religion because I’m anti-theist. I have negative opinions about religion because there is no evidence it’s true and it activity hurts society - which then classifies me as anti-theist.
You’re also using circular reasoning. “The book is real because it comes from God, but God is real because the book says so.” Harry Potter’s book says he’s real. He’s a wizard, so you know he’s powerful enough to be real - his book says so.
We haven’t even began to discuss about religion. We’ve only been talking about morality. If you actually researched about religions you wouldn’t b saying there is no evidence for God. You just haven’t looked into it. And how does it actively hurt society? Morals are subjective. I don’t want to have to keep bringing this up but all your arguments fall flat because of this one point. Nothing is right or wrong from your perspective so you shouldn’t be saying things like “X is bad” or “X is good”
I didn’t make the point that the Quran is from Allah because Allah said so. When talking about morality, I’m going to use the Quran as my criteria. The discussion on whether the Quran is from God or not is a seperate discussion which I would be happy to have but you don’t seem to want to talk about it. Not sure why.
I’m not presupposing God isn’t real - I’m asking for evidence he is and you aren’t giving any. I even said if he is real, he isn’t the good guy. You clearly have had these types of discussions before and are now projecting arguments onto me.
So do you want to talk about the evidence for God or not? Again you are putting limits on God which are not there. He isn’t good because you don’t understand why? Is that even a reason? I actually haven’t had discussions like these before. This is actually my first time talking in depth about morality and religion. Before that I was just researching.
Again, why do morals need to be objective? They aren’t. Is it wrong to steal? Yeah. Is it morally wrong to steal from a man who stole the wealth of a nation to ffes your family? No. There is no such thing as “objective” morality. It’s all subjective and contextual.
Why is it wrong to steal though? And how is it ok to steal from someone who did wrong to you? Two wrongs don’t make a right. You need to explain why you believe in certain things. You can’t just use your feelings to say things are right or wrong.
God has no limits but allows terrible things (like I listed above). That makes him not good. This is just another semantics move.
I’m going to bring this point again. Why are these things bad? This is not semantics, try to understand. You have to explain why these things are bad. I’m bringing this point again and again because there is no objective morality for you. If you have no objective morality, you can’t say things are good or bad. And like I said, they are bad in your eyes, but God has a greater plan.
Ad hominems I see. No substance or value to bring so you resort to insults. You don’t care about evidence. You don’t care about having a sincere and open conversation. You are not open to change your mind at all. You just want to live in your own world and follow whatever you like. So all what you said about using logic and rationality for making your decisions are all lies because you don’t have an answer for anything when questioned about your beliefs. I never directly insulted you or mocked you but you are quick to do that to me and my religion. Maybe you should look in the mirror before calling others bigots because I only see hypocrasy in your standards. I see no point in discussing with you anymore because you aren’t being sincere or honest with yourself. May Allah guide you to the truth.
Never advocated for genocide. You’re putting words in my mouth now. I was giving an example of how someone who doesn’t believe in God should be thinking if they were logically sound. But you aren’t so it doesn’t matter. Also never justified the abuse that happened to you. You never shared any details about it so that is why I’m not making any judgements. I think you having lost the love of your parents has made you go off the deep end. You can still change your life around. It’s not too late.
What does this even mean? I was sexually abused as a teenager. I went to my parents for help and they did nothing. After it happened, what was the solution, how do you “solve” solve that?
It means that the experiences you went through are something you can bear through. I do have sympathy for you if you feel like you were helpless in that situation but I saw in your other comment that it was something that happened in the kitchen when you were a waiter. Did you complain to your boss? Who was the person that did it and how did they do it? Did you call the authorities if it was something illegal done onto you? I would need more details on that. As for abandoning your parents, that was uncalled for. Maybe they were unhelpful or maybe they didn’t think it was that big of a deal because you were making too much of a fuss about it. Regardless, the solution to that is not excommunicating your parents. If your parents couldn’t do anything about that, how is that their fault. You could’ve switched jobs if you didn’t like it. Or like I said, called your boss or the authorities if it was something illegal.
These are opposites. He can’t have a planned destiny and give people free will.
These are not opposites. Free will has to do with the choices you make. Destiny has to do with the outcome/results of your choices. Allah gives you the free will to make your choices. You can choose to submit and live life according to His guidance or you can follow your own desires. Allah is not forcing you to believe because had He wanted, He could’ve made all the people in the world believers. Just because Allah knows who will believe and who won’t doesn’t mean He is forcing you. If your teachers know that you will score good on an exam, are they forcing you to do well on that test? No, because you chose to study and do well. Your teachers knowing that you will do well is not them forcing you to study and do well. Same goes for bad students. If a teacher knows a student will perform poorly on that test, it is the student’s fault for not studying. The teacher knowing who will perform good or bad is not forcing anyone. Allah guides whoever He wills, and He knows best who are the guided ones.
Right… So that would make him a bad person. If a parents punished his kids without telling them why, he’s a bad parents. If a parent leaves a child to get hurt, that’s a bad parent. This just supports my point that even if your God is real, he’s the bad guy and doesn’t deserve to be praised.
But God is not punishing those that are innocent? You can’t tell if something that happened to you is a punishment from God or God saving you from something even worse. You can only assume that if you were sinful that this is punishment from God and if you were righteous then this is a test from God. You always seem to want to try to paint God in a bad light but never once tried to understand why things happen the way they do. If you can’t understand God’s plan, then isn’t that your problem. If you don’t believe in God in the first place, then your argument about God being evil is meaningless because you don’t even understand Him. How can you claim some person is doing something evil if you don’t even know what they are doing?
Yes because who are we to say what is good and what is not? If there no creator thenvevery person, every society would had different standards for morality.
Yes, because then we wouldn’t be bickering about whether homosexuality is evil or not. If we all have different standards for morality, then are you supposing each person should just act upon what they believe is moral or not?
Again Allah knows best. But in the Quran He mentions that He created life and death to test which of you is best in deed. He also mentions that do you think you will enter Paradise before Allah tests you?
This question about why man-kind was created is even posed by the Angels of Allah.
Quran - Al-Baqarah 2:30
وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَٰٓئِكَةِ إِنِّى جَاعِلٌ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةًۖ قَالُوٓا۟ أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ ٱلدِّمَآءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَۖ قَالَ إِنِّىٓ أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
English - Mohsin Khan/Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali
And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth.” They said: “Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.” He (Allâh) said: “I know that which you do not know.”
Mentioned before, to test those who are best in deed. Paradise is given to whoever Allah wishes but it is those that earned the pleasure of Allah that are most deserving of it.
Well yes, since Allah is All-Knowing and All-Powerful, how can you judge Allah when you don’t know much about Him? Since He is All-Knowing, All-Wise, All-Just then you know whatever He does is in accordance to His attributes. It’s us that don’t get the picture here. We only know the pixel. A small fraction.
Some calmaties and tests are there to save you from an even bigger calamity. Trials and tribulations also purify you, increase your faith, and bearing through them with patience will forgives your sins. Allah tests people differently according to their circumstances and will never test you with something you could not bear through. Also just because you are tested with difficulties does not mean that Allah hates you and vice-versa.
What do you mean who are we to say what is good or not? That’s presupposing that God exists without any support.
Your using circular reasoning. You can’t say “Obviously he exist because we’re having a conversation about his ethics.” That isn’t support. That isn’t anything.
Unicorns are important for the ecosystem. There, now that I’ve stated that - unicorns exist by that same logic.
You can’t use your religious book to support your idea. That again is presupposing the book is true before any support has been given. Again, that’s basically me saying “Harry Potter is a book about wizards - that must mean Hogwarts is real.” Just because a book says something doesn’tean it’s true without any other support.
Quotes from your religious book mean nothing to me and give no support for your point.
I can judge him based on his actions. You claim everything is by his design. I’m going to base him off that. Why does he torture children in painful ways? Why does he allow abuse? Why does he allow terrible things to happen? He can’t be all good, all powerful and all know and allow that, and have that part of his divine plan. A good God wouldn’t allow that.
Why didn’t he create us in a way that understands? Was he not powerful enough to communicate it to us? There’s no point in giving people a test that is unsolvable. He already knows everyone’s true heart right? Then he already knows the results of the test before he even gives it. Meaning he created people just to be damned, knowing they could never pass his tests.
Like I said, are you saying we should all just follow our own morals based on our desires? Your saying that there’s no need for objective morality then that means society can’t function. Everyone will just follow his own rules and do whatever he wishes and make justification for it. We should start killing the elderly and terminally ill because they are a waste of resources and provide no value to society. We should also only breed smart people with smart people so that we can ensure the next generation isn’f supider than the previous. And if you allow me to follow my own morals then gay people should be in mental hospitals. You see the problem here? No God, means no objective morality, which means nothing is “true”. You are not any less right or wrong than I am because at the end of the day, there is no right answer.
Going back to how this conversation started, your points on homphobia don’t mean anything to anyone who doesn’t care about that. So how about you stop pretending to be “moral” because you clearly don’t even know what that really means.
Yes I can because it is from God. You don’t believe that despite the evidence I gave previously but you are so close-minded you don’t even want to consider the possibility of a creator because you already made up your mind that you are “anti-theist”. Which is just as stupid as someone who blind follows without evidence because you are presupposing that God doesn’t exist just like how you complain about others presupposing that God exists. Where else am I supposed to get objective morality from besides the One who created this universe and the entirety of existence?
Again you never defined what good and evil is. You’re talking about all these “terrible” things but these things don’t exist in your world-view because morality is never defined.
Why not? You think you know more? Your puny brain is going to try understand the will of the All-Knowing and All-Wise? Give me a break. You are setting limits on God which don’t exist. God isn’t going to follow what you like and don’t like. You are His servant, not the other way around.
Like I said, He will never test you with something you can’t bear. Who said any of these problems were unsolvable? There is a light at the end of the tunnel and that will be on Judgement Day. You’ll know what happened, why it happened, etc. Allah knows everyone’s destiny but gives everyone the freewill to act out their own destiny. Why? Allah knows best. Like I said, even the Angels don’t know why. Why human beings were created, why Allah tested us even though He knows the end result. You’ll know all these in the afterlife. And this ambiguity is also part of the test. If you know Allah is All-Knowing and All-Wise then you should trust His plan.
Where did I say morals get based off of desires? Morals have to do with behaviors and what is acceptable or not - not desires. Your, again, presupposing an argument onto me. I never said such a thing.
My morals don’t align with my desires. I love ice cream, but I don’t steal ice cream just because I love it.
What you’re doing now is all “The appeal to God.” Basically if you can’t explain something, you believe it’s God.
Wouldn’t that mean non-religous people do that now? People who don’t agree with your religion would already be this way right? So why aren’t they? You’re acting like individuals DON’T have fee will. That they’re slaves to their desires. People aren’t, people have humility, people have generosity, all without being religious.
This just feels like a self report of your own internal feelings. Are you saying you would want to kill people if you were religious? That’s all you man. I don’t want anyone to die.
This is 100% a self report. Why would gay people be put in mental hospitals? That’s just what YOU want - which has been influenced by your religion.
What evidence? So far you’re only response to Amy of my questions is “God works in mysterious ways.” I even called it out before you said it. It’s not an answer - it’s literally saying “there is no answer.” I don’t have negative opinions about religion because I’m anti-theist. I have negative opinions about religion because there is no evidence it’s true and it activity hurts society - which then classifies me as anti-theist.
You’re also using circular reasoning. “The book is real because it comes from God, but God is real because the book says so.” Harry Potter’s book says he’s real. He’s a wizard, so you know he’s powerful enough to be real - his book says so.
I’m not presupposing God isn’t real - I’m asking for evidence he is and you aren’t giving any. I even said if he is real, he isn’t the good guy. You clearly have had these types of discussions before and are now projecting arguments onto me.
Again, why do morals need to be objective? They aren’t. Is it wrong to steal? Yeah. Is it morally wrong to steal from a man who stole the wealth of a nation to ffes your family? No. There is no such thing as “objective” morality. It’s all subjective and contextual.
Uhhh, yes I did? I listed abuse, I listed illness. So you’re just ignoring what I write now. I didn’t even ask about good or evil here, I asked why would a good God allow that - youre the one claiming hes good, it’s you’re job to justify how you think abusing kids is good. You’re playing a semantics game, instead of answering, you’re falling back onto the pretending to not know the meaning of words.
God has no limits but allows terrible things (like I listed above). That makes him not good. This is just another semantics move.
What does this even mean? I was sexually abused as a teenager. I went to my parents for help and they did nothing. After it happened, what was the solution, how do you “solve” solve that?
These are opposites. He can’t have a planned destiny and give people free will.
Right… So that would make him a bad person. If a parents punished his kids without telling them why, he’s a bad parents. If a parent leaves a child to get hurt, that’s a bad parent. This just supports my point that even if your God is real, he’s the bad guy and doesn’t deserve to be praised.
I’m going to ask you again. What are your morals based off of? You said abuse and illness is bad. Why? You don’t know why, you just have a feeling it is. Care to explain morality for me please? I’m not playing a semantics game, I’m playing a definitions game because if you don’t even know what you are talking about, then it’s not worth discussing it.
I’m talking about morality here. If there is no God, morality does not exist period. You can’t make morality out of nothing. Like you said it will be subjective and contexual. So what you are really saying is there is no right answer and there are no universal morals. So if you do believe that then stop criticizing those that don’t align with your morals because at the end of the day, they are just as right as you are. So your entire argument against me on homophobia and bigotry is meaningless because you can’t say I’m right or wrong because all morals are subjective.
Non-religious people already are following their own morals based off desires. Allowing alcohol, marijuana, homosexuality, etc. All these things have been scientifically proven to have negative effects on individuals and yet people still continue to do them. So no, people are in fact slaves to their own desires. I never said they didn’t have free will. Their free will is following their own desires. If you have no purpose in life like non-religious people, what else would you do besides that? People having humility and generosity without faith doesn’t make sense either. Why would someone do that unless they stand to gain something? Maybe a better community? People would praise them more? You can’t do something for the sake of doing it without any good reason. If you do, then you are no different from an animal. Maybe even worse because at least an animal would do things for self-preservation. All these things like humility and generosity without reason is just for people to feel better about themselves.
Like I said in my first paragraph, can you explain why these things are evil? It is your subjective morality, why should I bother arguing if you believe everyone has their own morals? If my answer about Allah allowing things to happen and all happenings are predestined (Qadr). And He is All-Wise and All-Powerful. And you don’t trust His plan. Then that’s on you. I don’t have to justify His actions if you don’t like them. I’m not a prophet. If you want to talk about the divine nature of the Quran, we can do that. My evidence I gave previously is referring to the preservation of the Quran. Can you name any other sacred text with this level of preservation? No. So don’t write off all religions as the same in your head because that is just showing your ignorance in the field. If you don’t want to talk about the Quran then you won’t understand the foundation of my arguments.
Self-report? I thought you cared about the greater good. If you don’t want anyone to die, why? The world will be better off with the elderly and terminally ill gone. Can you explain why that is a moral dilemma for you? I don’t believe in these things because I get my morality from Islam. But you have your own morals from some arbitrary criteria you set for yourself and can be argued against. This entire time you have never explained why you believe in the things you believe in. On the other hand, I’ve explained all the things I believe in and why. If you don’t like the answers, that’s a different story but I’m explaining God’s nature through His attributes. If you don’t see the wisdom in His actions, that’s your problem. I also don’t claim to know everything about why God does certain things but He explains Himself that He knows more than we do. So trust His plan if you truly believe.
Yes I believe in these things because of my religion. What’s wrong with that? Morality is subjective remember.
We haven’t even began to discuss about religion. We’ve only been talking about morality. If you actually researched about religions you wouldn’t b saying there is no evidence for God. You just haven’t looked into it. And how does it actively hurt society? Morals are subjective. I don’t want to have to keep bringing this up but all your arguments fall flat because of this one point. Nothing is right or wrong from your perspective so you shouldn’t be saying things like “X is bad” or “X is good”
I didn’t make the point that the Quran is from Allah because Allah said so. When talking about morality, I’m going to use the Quran as my criteria. The discussion on whether the Quran is from God or not is a seperate discussion which I would be happy to have but you don’t seem to want to talk about it. Not sure why.
So do you want to talk about the evidence for God or not? Again you are putting limits on God which are not there. He isn’t good because you don’t understand why? Is that even a reason? I actually haven’t had discussions like these before. This is actually my first time talking in depth about morality and religion. Before that I was just researching.
Why is it wrong to steal though? And how is it ok to steal from someone who did wrong to you? Two wrongs don’t make a right. You need to explain why you believe in certain things. You can’t just use your feelings to say things are right or wrong.
I’m going to bring this point again. Why are these things bad? This is not semantics, try to understand. You have to explain why these things are bad. I’m bringing this point again and again because there is no objective morality for you. If you have no objective morality, you can’t say things are good or bad. And like I said, they are bad in your eyes, but God has a greater plan.
Oh, you’re not just a religious nut. You’re a complete asshole too.
You’re just a bad person. That’s all they’re is to this.
Maybe your religion is just your cover.
Ad hominems I see. No substance or value to bring so you resort to insults. You don’t care about evidence. You don’t care about having a sincere and open conversation. You are not open to change your mind at all. You just want to live in your own world and follow whatever you like. So all what you said about using logic and rationality for making your decisions are all lies because you don’t have an answer for anything when questioned about your beliefs. I never directly insulted you or mocked you but you are quick to do that to me and my religion. Maybe you should look in the mirror before calling others bigots because I only see hypocrasy in your standards. I see no point in discussing with you anymore because you aren’t being sincere or honest with yourself. May Allah guide you to the truth.
You’ve advocate for genocide twice in your last comment.
You justified my abuse.
I don’t give a single shit what you have to say anymore.
Never advocated for genocide. You’re putting words in my mouth now. I was giving an example of how someone who doesn’t believe in God should be thinking if they were logically sound. But you aren’t so it doesn’t matter. Also never justified the abuse that happened to you. You never shared any details about it so that is why I’m not making any judgements. I think you having lost the love of your parents has made you go off the deep end. You can still change your life around. It’s not too late.
It means that the experiences you went through are something you can bear through. I do have sympathy for you if you feel like you were helpless in that situation but I saw in your other comment that it was something that happened in the kitchen when you were a waiter. Did you complain to your boss? Who was the person that did it and how did they do it? Did you call the authorities if it was something illegal done onto you? I would need more details on that. As for abandoning your parents, that was uncalled for. Maybe they were unhelpful or maybe they didn’t think it was that big of a deal because you were making too much of a fuss about it. Regardless, the solution to that is not excommunicating your parents. If your parents couldn’t do anything about that, how is that their fault. You could’ve switched jobs if you didn’t like it. Or like I said, called your boss or the authorities if it was something illegal.
These are not opposites. Free will has to do with the choices you make. Destiny has to do with the outcome/results of your choices. Allah gives you the free will to make your choices. You can choose to submit and live life according to His guidance or you can follow your own desires. Allah is not forcing you to believe because had He wanted, He could’ve made all the people in the world believers. Just because Allah knows who will believe and who won’t doesn’t mean He is forcing you. If your teachers know that you will score good on an exam, are they forcing you to do well on that test? No, because you chose to study and do well. Your teachers knowing that you will do well is not them forcing you to study and do well. Same goes for bad students. If a teacher knows a student will perform poorly on that test, it is the student’s fault for not studying. The teacher knowing who will perform good or bad is not forcing anyone. Allah guides whoever He wills, and He knows best who are the guided ones.
But God is not punishing those that are innocent? You can’t tell if something that happened to you is a punishment from God or God saving you from something even worse. You can only assume that if you were sinful that this is punishment from God and if you were righteous then this is a test from God. You always seem to want to try to paint God in a bad light but never once tried to understand why things happen the way they do. If you can’t understand God’s plan, then isn’t that your problem. If you don’t believe in God in the first place, then your argument about God being evil is meaningless because you don’t even understand Him. How can you claim some person is doing something evil if you don’t even know what they are doing?