I’ve always wondered how people thought the “good guy with a gun” would work in a chaotic real world situation. Suppose you’re armed and there’s a mass shooting event. You pull out your gun and keep a look out for the shooter as you hear gunfire getting closer. Then you spot a guy holding a gun. You quickly take aim and fire…
… And hit another “good guy with a gun” who was trying to take out the mass shooter the same as you.
Oh, but then you get shot by a third “good guy with a gun” who thought YOU were the mass shooter.
Arming everyone and telling them to be “good guys with guns” just seems, at best, like it would lead to MORE injuries and deaths.
Or, as has actually happened before, a good guy with a gun kills the bad guy and then gets shot by the cops who arrive thinking the guy with the gun is the bad guy:
Yup, this is how it goes down in my head, and why I don’t carry a gun. I think there’s a decent chance that I could take down an active shooter (not sure if I have the guts to, but that’s beside the point) because I have the element of surprise on my side, but there’s an even bigger chance I get shot either in the crossfire or by the police. Most of the time it’ll be a single shooter, but I have no guarantee that’s the case, so I’d need to be ready for a second shooter.
I’ve run through a few options, and I just don’t see a clear way to distinguish myself from an active shooter.
Of course, the other option is just say “please no don’t do it I have a wife and 47 kids!”
You could also try running, yes, or hiding, but “carrying a gun” and “trying to get to an exit or shelter in place and only using said gun if he blocks the exit or finds your hiding spot” are not exactly mutually exclusive, you can do both, you don’t have to “run towards the sound of gunfire” like some marine. In fact that would be the much smarter way to do it, “camping” isn’t frowned upon in real life, this isn’t COD. As for identifying who the shooter is “it’s usually the guy shooting unarmed people,” but failing that, “better to be sure and confirm your target,” unfortunately this puts you at a disadvantage but he’s willing to shoot random people and you aren’t (I hope), so what’re ya gonna do.
Unfortunately from a realistic standpoint even with gun control laws this will not be an impossibility, though they may reduce the frequency. There’s already upwards of 600,000,000 guns in 50% of the populations hands (and women won’t stop buying them, they’re the fastest growing group of new gun owners. More specifically black women followed by all women), even if you ban them they’ll be out there.
And unfortunately Rittenhouse was textbook self defense, he only shot the guy who grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who hit him with a skateboard and grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who pointed a gun at him, not any of the people who retreated or didn’t attack. I know, he lived in a different state and commuted 20 min to kenosha for work every day where his friends and dad lived, but the gun was kept at Dominic Black’s house and never “crossed state lines” (also, even if it did, it is legal to cross state lines with a gun so long as it is legal in the state, and WI is far more permissive than IL, any gun legal in IL is legal in WI by far.) Also it is legal for a 17yo to have a gun in WI for some reason. Unfortunately even if we agree with his political opinions we currently can’t put him in jail for that, he didn’t actually break any laws.
But he was allowed to show up with a gun in case someone attacked him, can’t arrest him for defending himself if he’s allowed to do it, as unfortunate as that is. Sorry, I’ve never met him, you must have me confused with someone else.
I’m not worried about me identifying the shooter, I’m worried about the police identifying me as the shooter or hostage taker if I somehow shoot the perp but don’t kill them.
Best case scenario, I shoot someone and risk getting shot by the police, worst case scenario I get shot by the perp (and even worse, they use my gun to kill people), and average case scenario, I get out alive without using the gun. I just don’t see a lot of good things coming out of it. My area is incredibly safe, so the chances of needing it are extremely small, the chances of it helping are even smaller, and the chances of my kids finding it are much higher than I’m comfortable with.
If I was commuting through a bad neighborhood, I could see it being useful. I live and work in safe neighborhoods, so it’s not an issue.
Well that’s why CCW training tells you to put your gun away if you’re sure it’s now a safe area, and if it isn’t now a safe area (possible other shooters for instance) to GTFO and call the cops and your lawyer. Also why you should give a description of the active shooter if you call it in, so they know “oh this dude in a T shirt may be a defender, we recieved a call about a guy in tac gear.” Of course, most often the shooters specifically target gun free zones because you can’t have one there, so you technically likely shouldn’t have one anyway, so makes sense the cops wouldn’t expect a defender in those cases either.
Yeah it’s something that everyone needs to decide for themselves (my issue is when people like to decide things for others.) It definitely can be helpful in a specific scenario, like a hammer to a nail, but it is also a responsibility and if you aren’t able or willing to, you shouldn’t, that simple. Especially if as you say you are you’re priviledged enough to live in a good area, in contrast to pizza delivery drivers (well, “ex”) who live in bad neighborhoods who may need them.
Agreed, and I’ll always defend the right to carry, for those who choose to. I think we should have some extra restrictions, like maybe a CCW for concealable firearms (and subsequent training), plus proof of secure storage in some manner if you have kids.
The only place I’d carry is at work, and it’s against company policy to carry. So I don’t, it’s just not worth the risk and the likelihood that I’d need it is so remote.
Well a CCW is already required in most states to carry except for those recently lightening restrictions. Secure storage is iffy, because the supreme court already ruled it invalidates the right to self defense (most home invaders aren’t kind enough to wait until you get your safe open to duel you, they typically just steal the guns from your safe after forcing you to open it at gunpoint when you ask if they’ll hold up a sec, and then use those in subseqent crimes.)
And yeah I hear that, unfortunately the fact that your work bans guns even with a CCW means that if you ever do need it, it’ll probably be there, gun free zones being the typical targets, and disgruntled employees and all. But I totally understand that it becomes not worth the risk then, you’d either have to risk being found out and fired or keep it in the car which while sometimes necessary because “gun free zone” always feels like you’re forced to leave a gun where it can be (and they often are) easily stolen.
Secure storage is mostly for people with kids or at-risk individuals at home.
Secure storage against burglary doesn’t exist; if they want your guns, they’ll just grind their way in or steal the safe to grind later. Expecting home owners to protect against that absolutely just isn’t practical, the goal should be keeping curious (or determined) kids from getting in, and deterring theft from burglary should be a nice side-effect. Unfortunately, most gun locks fail that standard.
keep it in the car
Yeah, I’m not going to escape a building with an active shooter to retrieve a gun and go back in. If I know I need it and it’s in my car, it might as well be at home. And keeping it in the car is just asking for trouble from an officer, they seem to be easily spooked by such things. Fortunately, I’m white, so I’ll probably get the benefit of the doubt, but it’s just not something I’m interested in testing.
But if there was an incident in my office, I’d be screwed. There are three exits:
emergency exit near my workspace - would sound an alarm (not ideal)
main door - glass doorway that opens into the entryway and looks into my hallway (terrible)
back door - need to pass a glass door to the lobby, and another to the lunch room; it opens up onto a balcony (long drop, would need to cross lots of windows either direction)
So basically, my options aren’t great. Yet I still think I’m net better off not carrying.
Yeah, my coworkers said how great it would have been after the Colorado movie theater shooting (Batman movie) if everyone was armed. They just knew the original shooter would have been killed right away.
So,
Dark theater
Smoke filled (by shooter)
Bullets suddenly flying
Who in their right mind thinks basically everyone wouldn’t have been mowed down in a hail of gun fire?
Yeah they picture it as a very specific scenario with one mass shooter and one retaliatory shooter. Any more than one retaliatory shooter and it all falls apart as OP described though lol.
I’ve always wondered how people thought the “good guy with a gun” would work in a chaotic real world situation. Suppose you’re armed and there’s a mass shooting event. You pull out your gun and keep a look out for the shooter as you hear gunfire getting closer. Then you spot a guy holding a gun. You quickly take aim and fire…
… And hit another “good guy with a gun” who was trying to take out the mass shooter the same as you.
Oh, but then you get shot by a third “good guy with a gun” who thought YOU were the mass shooter.
Arming everyone and telling them to be “good guys with guns” just seems, at best, like it would lead to MORE injuries and deaths.
Or, as has actually happened before, a good guy with a gun kills the bad guy and then gets shot by the cops who arrive thinking the guy with the gun is the bad guy:
https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/560798-police-chief-hails-good-guy-with-a-gun-after-officer-kills/
Yup, this is how it goes down in my head, and why I don’t carry a gun. I think there’s a decent chance that I could take down an active shooter (not sure if I have the guts to, but that’s beside the point) because I have the element of surprise on my side, but there’s an even bigger chance I get shot either in the crossfire or by the police. Most of the time it’ll be a single shooter, but I have no guarantee that’s the case, so I’d need to be ready for a second shooter.
I’ve run through a few options, and I just don’t see a clear way to distinguish myself from an active shooter.
Of course, the other option is just say “please no don’t do it I have a wife and 47 kids!”
You could also try running, yes, or hiding, but “carrying a gun” and “trying to get to an exit or shelter in place and only using said gun if he blocks the exit or finds your hiding spot” are not exactly mutually exclusive, you can do both, you don’t have to “run towards the sound of gunfire” like some marine. In fact that would be the much smarter way to do it, “camping” isn’t frowned upon in real life, this isn’t COD. As for identifying who the shooter is “it’s usually the guy shooting unarmed people,” but failing that, “better to be sure and confirm your target,” unfortunately this puts you at a disadvantage but he’s willing to shoot random people and you aren’t (I hope), so what’re ya gonna do.
Pass gun control rules? And convict people like Rittenhouse.
Unfortunately from a realistic standpoint even with gun control laws this will not be an impossibility, though they may reduce the frequency. There’s already upwards of 600,000,000 guns in 50% of the populations hands (and women won’t stop buying them, they’re the fastest growing group of new gun owners. More specifically black women followed by all women), even if you ban them they’ll be out there.
And unfortunately Rittenhouse was textbook self defense, he only shot the guy who grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who hit him with a skateboard and grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who pointed a gun at him, not any of the people who retreated or didn’t attack. I know, he lived in a different state and commuted 20 min to kenosha for work every day where his friends and dad lived, but the gun was kept at Dominic Black’s house and never “crossed state lines” (also, even if it did, it is legal to cross state lines with a gun so long as it is legal in the state, and WI is far more permissive than IL, any gun legal in IL is legal in WI by far.) Also it is legal for a 17yo to have a gun in WI for some reason. Unfortunately even if we agree with his political opinions we currently can’t put him in jail for that, he didn’t actually break any laws.
Pass gun control laws and he showed up with a gun he should have gone to jail. Your bff is out there now as a darling of conservative media btw
But he was allowed to show up with a gun in case someone attacked him, can’t arrest him for defending himself if he’s allowed to do it, as unfortunate as that is. Sorry, I’ve never met him, you must have me confused with someone else.
You show up somewhere with a gun it is because you are planning on using it. And yeah he is your bff
I’m not worried about me identifying the shooter, I’m worried about the police identifying me as the shooter or hostage taker if I somehow shoot the perp but don’t kill them.
Best case scenario, I shoot someone and risk getting shot by the police, worst case scenario I get shot by the perp (and even worse, they use my gun to kill people), and average case scenario, I get out alive without using the gun. I just don’t see a lot of good things coming out of it. My area is incredibly safe, so the chances of needing it are extremely small, the chances of it helping are even smaller, and the chances of my kids finding it are much higher than I’m comfortable with.
If I was commuting through a bad neighborhood, I could see it being useful. I live and work in safe neighborhoods, so it’s not an issue.
Well that’s why CCW training tells you to put your gun away if you’re sure it’s now a safe area, and if it isn’t now a safe area (possible other shooters for instance) to GTFO and call the cops and your lawyer. Also why you should give a description of the active shooter if you call it in, so they know “oh this dude in a T shirt may be a defender, we recieved a call about a guy in tac gear.” Of course, most often the shooters specifically target gun free zones because you can’t have one there, so you technically likely shouldn’t have one anyway, so makes sense the cops wouldn’t expect a defender in those cases either.
Yeah it’s something that everyone needs to decide for themselves (my issue is when people like to decide things for others.) It definitely can be helpful in a specific scenario, like a hammer to a nail, but it is also a responsibility and if you aren’t able or willing to, you shouldn’t, that simple. Especially if as you say you are you’re priviledged enough to live in a good area, in contrast to pizza delivery drivers (well, “ex”) who live in bad neighborhoods who may need them.
Agreed, and I’ll always defend the right to carry, for those who choose to. I think we should have some extra restrictions, like maybe a CCW for concealable firearms (and subsequent training), plus proof of secure storage in some manner if you have kids.
The only place I’d carry is at work, and it’s against company policy to carry. So I don’t, it’s just not worth the risk and the likelihood that I’d need it is so remote.
Well a CCW is already required in most states to carry except for those recently lightening restrictions. Secure storage is iffy, because the supreme court already ruled it invalidates the right to self defense (most home invaders aren’t kind enough to wait until you get your safe open to duel you, they typically just steal the guns from your safe after forcing you to open it at gunpoint when you ask if they’ll hold up a sec, and then use those in subseqent crimes.)
And yeah I hear that, unfortunately the fact that your work bans guns even with a CCW means that if you ever do need it, it’ll probably be there, gun free zones being the typical targets, and disgruntled employees and all. But I totally understand that it becomes not worth the risk then, you’d either have to risk being found out and fired or keep it in the car which while sometimes necessary because “gun free zone” always feels like you’re forced to leave a gun where it can be (and they often are) easily stolen.
Secure storage is mostly for people with kids or at-risk individuals at home.
Secure storage against burglary doesn’t exist; if they want your guns, they’ll just grind their way in or steal the safe to grind later. Expecting home owners to protect against that absolutely just isn’t practical, the goal should be keeping curious (or determined) kids from getting in, and deterring theft from burglary should be a nice side-effect. Unfortunately, most gun locks fail that standard.
Yeah, I’m not going to escape a building with an active shooter to retrieve a gun and go back in. If I know I need it and it’s in my car, it might as well be at home. And keeping it in the car is just asking for trouble from an officer, they seem to be easily spooked by such things. Fortunately, I’m white, so I’ll probably get the benefit of the doubt, but it’s just not something I’m interested in testing.
But if there was an incident in my office, I’d be screwed. There are three exits:
So basically, my options aren’t great. Yet I still think I’m net better off not carrying.
It’s deflective rhetoric so they don’t have to address the truth:
We don’t know who is going to make a bad decision with their gun until after they do it.
What I’ve always liked to say is that everyone is a good guy with a gun… Until they aren’t.
Yeah, my coworkers said how great it would have been after the Colorado movie theater shooting (Batman movie) if everyone was armed. They just knew the original shooter would have been killed right away.
So,
Who in their right mind thinks basically everyone wouldn’t have been mowed down in a hail of gun fire?
It’s either that, or the people with guns are afraid to use them when the time comes and they hesitate too long to do any good.
They picture it pretty much how it went down here:
Personally, I would just prefer to have a pistol in hand if I ended up in the last part of ‘run, hide, fight’.
Yeah they picture it as a very specific scenario with one mass shooter and one retaliatory shooter. Any more than one retaliatory shooter and it all falls apart as OP described though lol.
Well if there is one thing a chaotic and violent situation needs is more guns.