I think this is a very, very complex multi-faceted issue worthy of a lengthy discussion, and sits at the intersection of politics, class struggle, psychology, history, neoliberal ideology, Christian elements of the Global North, and various fears and unreasonable expectations from many different points of view. I can give my perspective:
“Biologically” speaking, I’m a dude, assigned male at birth. I had my vasectomy done several days ago.
Intellectually and “spiritually” speaking, I identify myself as “partially non-binary”. It varies on any given day, but I would say I’m roughly 60-90 percent male, 30-40 percent feminine, and 40-70 percent or 100 percent non-binary.
I’m also Latino and Bisexual, my preferences roughly 70-80 percent prefer women.
I was born and raised in a very strong Catholic household DFW/NRH Texas, and even though its a shithole, for now I consider it home.
This next statement might raise some flags, and it pains me that I ever identified this way or have sympathies, but I believe it’s worth stating: I’m a former Incel.
I think that people are very quick to demonize Incels, but it isn’t entirely unearned. Many incels are/were extremely shitty people: Elliot Rodger, Alek Minassian, Nikolas-Cruz, Chris-Harper Mercer, George Sodini, I could go on. And many incels looked up to these fucking pricks. For my worth, I always viewed these monsters as incomprehensibly evil douchebags. Speaking from my own personal experience (I’m not a scientist that can provide actual numbers or data), the vast majority of incels (or at least many of them) aren’t inherently misogynistic, racist, violent, abusive or selfish assholes.
Most of the incels I met or talked to were just fairly normal people, and often of non-white descent and backgrounds, they were just distraught and lost, and many of us felt alienated from human or modern society, and most of us would rather hurt ourselves and believe we deserve it rather than hurt or murder anyone else.
I am moderately on the autistic spectrum, and I also suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder, Bipolar 2 and Impulse Control Disorder, and anxiety, so my life is a living hell.
Due to some weird combination of my heavily Catholic upbringing and very conservative area, and heavily taboo concepts regarding sex, intimacy, love, romance, emotional maturity, dating, and societal expectations and sex differences, I honestly just always struggled with friendships and dating. I feel like since I was born, I’ve been and always will be a nuisance and a waste of resources, and even when I try and reach out, I’m constantly creep-shamed for things that other “normal” people get away with on an hourly basis. Maybe there is some truth in having a persecution complex, but my entire life I’ve genuinely felt singled-out for very little or no reason, and way more to an extent than others for the same or worse cases of being friendly, sexual jokes, being simultaneously too open and not open about my feelings, having extremely high and low self-worth. “It’s not a persecution complex if I really am singled out” is how I put it.
Coupled with discrimination towards my race, my appearance, my often varying weight, I feel like people almost never give me a “fair shake”. I don’t feel anyone owes me anything, just basic decency and understanding.
Being social and meeting others or knowing how to express humor, pain, excitement, love or happiness in ways that are socially appropriate and being bombastic without being creepy or “spastic” is such fucking bullshit, so for a while, and still to an extent, I just gave up.
This explains so much of my life, my psychology, my history. I don’t have a magic answer or phrase, I just hope others draw from this experience. Capitalist alienation and demonization of outsiders is a major problem in the world. I was fucking outcast even from the other outcasts! And yes, I think the alt-reich and men’s rights “activists” misuse these terms, but you can’t convince me whatsoever that “creep-shaming” or “lookism” aren’t real issues at all, and I don’t think they are talked about nearly enough.
I also know that and I think society should admit that yes, men, masculine and trans-masculine people also are discriminated against, almost as often and almost to the extent as women and AFAB people are, though likely not anywhere near as much pervasively them, and I understand that women are definitely the more oppressed sex.
I also know that and I think society should admit that yes, men, masculine and trans-masculine people also are discriminated against, almost as often and almost to the extent as women and AFAB people are, though likely not anywhere near as much pervasively them, and I understand that women are definitely the more oppressed sex.
Yeah the secret about the damaging effects of toxic masculinty and the partiarchy is that it doesnt even benefit men, its what is sending them to war, keeping them lonely and isolated and ensuring they will never make deep connections with other people.
There are some ways in which men benefit straightforwardly from privilege but not every man can reify those benefits successfully and men would eventually be better off with patriarchy dismantled as they could access other privileges that are currently out of reach for everyone due to the limitations of our society.
In case you’re unaware of the term, “purity culture” seems to describe some of your experience. I think the ‘Straight white American Jesus’ podcast talks about that, but I haven’t listened in a while (they’re libs).
Patriarchy and capitalism hurt everyone regardless of if they’re technically the oppressor in that relationship.
I think this is a very, very complex multi-faceted issue worthy of a lengthy discussion, and sits at the intersection of politics, class struggle, psychology, history, neoliberal ideology, Christian elements of the Global North, and various fears and unreasonable expectations from many different points of view. I can give my perspective:
“Biologically” speaking, I’m a dude, assigned male at birth. I had my vasectomy done several days ago.
Intellectually and “spiritually” speaking, I identify myself as “partially non-binary”. It varies on any given day, but I would say I’m roughly 60-90 percent male, 30-40 percent feminine, and 40-70 percent or 100 percent non-binary.
I’m also Latino and Bisexual, my preferences roughly 70-80 percent prefer women.
I was born and raised in a very strong Catholic household DFW/NRH Texas, and even though its a shithole, for now I consider it home.
This next statement might raise some flags, and it pains me that I ever identified this way or have sympathies, but I believe it’s worth stating: I’m a former Incel.
I think that people are very quick to demonize Incels, but it isn’t entirely unearned. Many incels are/were extremely shitty people: Elliot Rodger, Alek Minassian, Nikolas-Cruz, Chris-Harper Mercer, George Sodini, I could go on. And many incels looked up to these fucking pricks. For my worth, I always viewed these monsters as incomprehensibly evil douchebags. Speaking from my own personal experience (I’m not a scientist that can provide actual numbers or data), the vast majority of incels (or at least many of them) aren’t inherently misogynistic, racist, violent, abusive or selfish assholes.
Most of the incels I met or talked to were just fairly normal people, and often of non-white descent and backgrounds, they were just distraught and lost, and many of us felt alienated from human or modern society, and most of us would rather hurt ourselves and believe we deserve it rather than hurt or murder anyone else.
I am moderately on the autistic spectrum, and I also suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder, Bipolar 2 and Impulse Control Disorder, and anxiety, so my life is a living hell.
Due to some weird combination of my heavily Catholic upbringing and very conservative area, and heavily taboo concepts regarding sex, intimacy, love, romance, emotional maturity, dating, and societal expectations and sex differences, I honestly just always struggled with friendships and dating. I feel like since I was born, I’ve been and always will be a nuisance and a waste of resources, and even when I try and reach out, I’m constantly creep-shamed for things that other “normal” people get away with on an hourly basis. Maybe there is some truth in having a persecution complex, but my entire life I’ve genuinely felt singled-out for very little or no reason, and way more to an extent than others for the same or worse cases of being friendly, sexual jokes, being simultaneously too open and not open about my feelings, having extremely high and low self-worth. “It’s not a persecution complex if I really am singled out” is how I put it.
Coupled with discrimination towards my race, my appearance, my often varying weight, I feel like people almost never give me a “fair shake”. I don’t feel anyone owes me anything, just basic decency and understanding.
Being social and meeting others or knowing how to express humor, pain, excitement, love or happiness in ways that are socially appropriate and being bombastic without being creepy or “spastic” is such fucking bullshit, so for a while, and still to an extent, I just gave up.
This explains so much of my life, my psychology, my history. I don’t have a magic answer or phrase, I just hope others draw from this experience. Capitalist alienation and demonization of outsiders is a major problem in the world. I was fucking outcast even from the other outcasts! And yes, I think the alt-reich and men’s rights “activists” misuse these terms, but you can’t convince me whatsoever that “creep-shaming” or “lookism” aren’t real issues at all, and I don’t think they are talked about nearly enough.
I also know that and I think society should admit that yes, men, masculine and trans-masculine people also are discriminated against, almost as often and almost to the extent as women and AFAB people are, though likely not anywhere near as much pervasively them, and I understand that women are definitely the more oppressed sex.
Yeah the secret about the damaging effects of toxic masculinty and the partiarchy is that it doesnt even benefit men, its what is sending them to war, keeping them lonely and isolated and ensuring they will never make deep connections with other people.
YES! This is exactly it, you perfectly described it.
There are some ways in which men benefit straightforwardly from privilege but not every man can reify those benefits successfully and men would eventually be better off with patriarchy dismantled as they could access other privileges that are currently out of reach for everyone due to the limitations of our society.
In case you’re unaware of the term, “purity culture” seems to describe some of your experience. I think the ‘Straight white American Jesus’ podcast talks about that, but I haven’t listened in a while (they’re libs).
Patriarchy and capitalism hurt everyone regardless of if they’re technically the oppressor in that relationship.