I guess so but when you compare 2nd tiers from Spain and Germany their quality is so much better. Germany’s 3rd tier also has great stadiums too, the only one that I can think of being great in our 3rd tier is Riazor and that’s also because they used to be a great team.
German sports culture always seemed so family oriented to me. Its like even small neighbourhood clubs are the gathering center, let it be sports or even bingo nights for elders. Everyone has an attachment to the clubs.
Germany being incredibly decentralised is also a net positive for sports culture, you simply have so many urban centers than can sustain big sports organisations compared to France or Spain.
Well its the club culture. To keep ur hometown club Alive u have to participate and work a bit for it. Its strenghening the community and binding ppl to the club
What makes me sad about England is when I first started working, our factory had a sports and social club that had existed for 100+ years.
This used to be the norm, and many bigger clubs still around today (West Ham: Thames Ironworks) came from these roots. Even once they’d professionalize the Saturday 3pm kick-off time was aligned to the time factories closed so the workers could then go and watch.
Anyway long-story short, the factory got bought by a Chinese firm and they instantly shut-down all of the social and sports clubs. Despite the wages always being relatively low, people used to love working there for the social element which completely disappeared.
It’s admiral how Germans have held on to their institutions compared to how we will just sell off anything to the highest bidder. I think it’s a class issue where the working class here either just don’t own enough to have a say, or worse don’t feel they have a right to have a say in community clubs that have been there for over 100 years.
Spain’s 2nd division has some insane stadiums as well, i bet most of the teams in spanish 2nd division are bigger than most stadiums in Portugal 1st division outside of the big 3, and i would bet 100€ the average attendance is bigger than in Portugal outside the big 3
“Portugal outside of Big 3” is really pretty small business lol. The 2nd tier of the Polish leauge also has more attendance than that, and Poland is among the European countries with fewest people going to football games per capita.
The “Big 3” is more than 60% of attendance of whole Primeira Liga.
Poland is among the European countries with fewest people going to football games per capita.
Is that lack of interest in football, or just the domestic league? Most of the Polish I’ve worked with would play in our 6-a-side games. One lad with a Legia Warsaw screensaver who was a bit of a nutter.
Hard to say for me really. Football is definitely popular. People just don’t go in as big amounts as in football countries, relatively to the country’s whole population. The only country I found with a lower number among the ones I checked was Ireland, but Ireland definitely has other sports they prefer, in Poland football is definitely the most popular sport overall.
What I can say is that in Germany football is considered way more inclusive entertainment, more people think it’s just a nice way to spend time with your family, “normal” people go to games. In Poland going to games is more associated with being a hooli, an ultra, and most middle-class people really despise the idea. I can say my family would definitely never go to a football game, and tbh even avoid going out on the time of the game to not meet the fans on the street to avoid unpleasantries. Also basically all my friends (middle class) despise football and football fans and think it’s an entertainment for simpletons and would never go to a game. The general popular opinion in this class is that footballers are overpaid lazy do-nothings who are all very bad at their job, and the fans are lowlife who will beat someone up.
I can also say that my hometown club has a stadium of 40 000, which is just too big in general. It was built for Euro 2012, in hopes that the culture will catch up to the facilities. The average last season was 10 thousand people, when they were battling relegation. This season, inexplicably, they keep winning games and lead the league, and the stadium is suddenly full.
In Poland going to games is more associated with being a hooli, an ultra, and most middle-class people really despise the idea. I can say my family would definitely never go to a football game, and tbh even avoid going out on the time of the game to not meet the fans on the street to avoid unpleasantries. Also basically all my friends (middle class) despise football and football fans and think it’s an entertainment for simpletons and would never go to a game. The general popular opinion in this class is that footballers are overpaid lazy do-nothings who are all very bad at their job, and the fans are lowlife who will beat someone up.
Interesting - this is exactly how it was in England before the Premier League. Attendances were half of what they are today in the 80s. No families, just predominantly working class men. It wasn’t uncommon for someone to just piss where they were standing in the stadium, so you’d never taken your wife or kids to a game.
I had a look at Polish historical attendances, and if you go back to the 1970s the average league attendance is actually higher than the leagues in France, Netherlands and Scotland at that time. About +40% higher than it is now.
For Ireland, football is still extremely popular over there, probably their 2nd sport after Gaelic football. More so than Rugby despite their success in that. It’s just difficult to encourage people to go out in the cold to watch local football when you can sit in a warm pub and watch a Premier League game on TV easily enough.
Hertha, Schalke, HSV, Nürnberg, Kaiserslautern and Hannover - six of twelve '06 World Cup stadiums are used by clubs currently in the 2. Bundesliga. Add Düsseldorf and that’s seven stadiums with 49.000+ seats, while the Championship, Serie B and Segunda Division have just one 40.000+ seater each (two in Ligue 2).
2006 is also a big part why some of those stadiums are now not in the Bundesliga anymore. A lot of Clubs taking on huge debt to pay for upgrades that couldn’t really afford it.
schalke opend theirs in 2001, parkstadion was fkin outdated, this was planned before gemany even got the world cup.
Hertha obviously rent the stadium, Glubb does so as well.
Hannover rent their stadium for less then a million a year, it was actually somewhat of a scandal, when it became public. HSV paid only about 15m for renovations prior to the world cup.
Lautern just fucked that one up all by themselves…
I’m always suprised at the quality of lower league German stadiums
Because those teams used to play in the BuLi
I guess so but when you compare 2nd tiers from Spain and Germany their quality is so much better. Germany’s 3rd tier also has great stadiums too, the only one that I can think of being great in our 3rd tier is Riazor and that’s also because they used to be a great team.
Germans know how to build stuff
sssh, we don’t talk about BER, Stuttgart 21 or the Munich Zweite Stammstrecke here.
I mean the Championship also has big teams, Leicester and probably the biggest one is Leeds are there. Sheffield Wednesday is also a traditional club.
Also Sunderland’s Stadium is nice
Malaga’s La Rosaleda too this season I suppose, but that’s an exception
I watched a documentary on La Liga called “Six Dreams” and it was insane seeing clubs like Eibar, Girona, competing against Real Madrid in Barcelona.
The disparity in facilities was vast. And these were clubs in La Liga at the time.
Many stadium were renovated for 2006.
What the fuck are Deportivo doing all the way down there? The hell happened?
Most teams in the second league of other countries also played in their first division once?!
German engineering
German sports culture always seemed so family oriented to me. Its like even small neighbourhood clubs are the gathering center, let it be sports or even bingo nights for elders. Everyone has an attachment to the clubs.
Germany being incredibly decentralised is also a net positive for sports culture, you simply have so many urban centers than can sustain big sports organisations compared to France or Spain.
Well its the club culture. To keep ur hometown club Alive u have to participate and work a bit for it. Its strenghening the community and binding ppl to the club
Extremely jealous of this.
What makes me sad about England is when I first started working, our factory had a sports and social club that had existed for 100+ years.
This used to be the norm, and many bigger clubs still around today (West Ham: Thames Ironworks) came from these roots. Even once they’d professionalize the Saturday 3pm kick-off time was aligned to the time factories closed so the workers could then go and watch.
Anyway long-story short, the factory got bought by a Chinese firm and they instantly shut-down all of the social and sports clubs. Despite the wages always being relatively low, people used to love working there for the social element which completely disappeared.
It’s admiral how Germans have held on to their institutions compared to how we will just sell off anything to the highest bidder. I think it’s a class issue where the working class here either just don’t own enough to have a say, or worse don’t feel they have a right to have a say in community clubs that have been there for over 100 years.
Spain’s 2nd division has some insane stadiums as well, i bet most of the teams in spanish 2nd division are bigger than most stadiums in Portugal 1st division outside of the big 3, and i would bet 100€ the average attendance is bigger than in Portugal outside the big 3
Oviedo’s stadium Carlos tartiere is insane.
“Portugal outside of Big 3” is really pretty small business lol. The 2nd tier of the Polish leauge also has more attendance than that, and Poland is among the European countries with fewest people going to football games per capita.
The “Big 3” is more than 60% of attendance of whole Primeira Liga.
Is that lack of interest in football, or just the domestic league? Most of the Polish I’ve worked with would play in our 6-a-side games. One lad with a Legia Warsaw screensaver who was a bit of a nutter.
Hard to say for me really. Football is definitely popular. People just don’t go in as big amounts as in football countries, relatively to the country’s whole population. The only country I found with a lower number among the ones I checked was Ireland, but Ireland definitely has other sports they prefer, in Poland football is definitely the most popular sport overall.
What I can say is that in Germany football is considered way more inclusive entertainment, more people think it’s just a nice way to spend time with your family, “normal” people go to games. In Poland going to games is more associated with being a hooli, an ultra, and most middle-class people really despise the idea. I can say my family would definitely never go to a football game, and tbh even avoid going out on the time of the game to not meet the fans on the street to avoid unpleasantries. Also basically all my friends (middle class) despise football and football fans and think it’s an entertainment for simpletons and would never go to a game. The general popular opinion in this class is that footballers are overpaid lazy do-nothings who are all very bad at their job, and the fans are lowlife who will beat someone up.
I can also say that my hometown club has a stadium of 40 000, which is just too big in general. It was built for Euro 2012, in hopes that the culture will catch up to the facilities. The average last season was 10 thousand people, when they were battling relegation. This season, inexplicably, they keep winning games and lead the league, and the stadium is suddenly full.
Interesting - this is exactly how it was in England before the Premier League. Attendances were half of what they are today in the 80s. No families, just predominantly working class men. It wasn’t uncommon for someone to just piss where they were standing in the stadium, so you’d never taken your wife or kids to a game.
I had a look at Polish historical attendances, and if you go back to the 1970s the average league attendance is actually higher than the leagues in France, Netherlands and Scotland at that time. About +40% higher than it is now.
For Ireland, football is still extremely popular over there, probably their 2nd sport after Gaelic football. More so than Rugby despite their success in that. It’s just difficult to encourage people to go out in the cold to watch local football when you can sit in a warm pub and watch a Premier League game on TV easily enough.
Germany is a wealthy country
The 2006 WC was also very instrumental in that.
It’s great when after a major sporting even the stadiums can be used.
Hertha, Schalke, HSV, Nürnberg, Kaiserslautern and Hannover - six of twelve '06 World Cup stadiums are used by clubs currently in the 2. Bundesliga. Add Düsseldorf and that’s seven stadiums with 49.000+ seats, while the Championship, Serie B and Segunda Division have just one 40.000+ seater each (two in Ligue 2).
Has to be Sainté and Bordeaux right ? Still weird that they’re in Ligue 2. Kinda like Hamburg/Schalke situation
2006 is also a big part why some of those stadiums are now not in the Bundesliga anymore. A lot of Clubs taking on huge debt to pay for upgrades that couldn’t really afford it.
well, not really…
schalke opend theirs in 2001, parkstadion was fkin outdated, this was planned before gemany even got the world cup. Hertha obviously rent the stadium, Glubb does so as well. Hannover rent their stadium for less then a million a year, it was actually somewhat of a scandal, when it became public. HSV paid only about 15m for renovations prior to the world cup.
Lautern just fucked that one up all by themselves…
Tell that our conservative politicians, please