Something about mom-aged blonde women drives TV fans a little wild for some reason. Also see the reaction to Walking Dead Andrea. And while she is obviously evil, i always found the Cersei hatedom a little dissproportional. Especially early on.
Cersei spends half her time plotting sexual assault and the other half doing murder. She is a terrible person. What are we doing here.
Her first noteworthy on screen deed in both book and series is incest followed by arguing for the murder of a child.
She creates a systemic murderous purge of dwarves, she lets one of her children sexually assault the other, she’s a violent misogynist, and she’s not good at anything. She’s incredibly hateable, that’s the point of the character. If people think she’s a monster then people have understood what’s happening in the story. She’s like opposite skylar
Yeah but if you hate her with a fury and dont hate certain men in the show its still disproportional. Hating Cersei and loving Robert is very common in the fandom. Or hating Cersei but considering Littlefinger love to hate.
Also, again, a lot of the depths of her evil do not manifest until later on. Yes she argues for killing Bran but the level of spitting vitriol she got in early seasons compared to male charachters other than Joffrey was simply not proportional to her actual actions.
I never argued that youre not supposed to hate her. Its not the same as Skyler.
It just was, I’m sorry. Cersei is supposed to be hated. You can argue that there’s a misogynist tinge to the fact that the evil characters who we are meant to hate are disproportionately women, and that they rarely get the credit of being “cool” the same way male villains do. But Cersei was always hateable, from her first moment on the pages to her last moment on screen she spends most of her time either actively engaging in evil or being just kind of an unlikable dick.
The difference between Robert and Cersei is that Robert is a friend of the “main character” when introduced, outwardly charming, cracks jokes, and is a total dipshit who didn’t set out to be king, who sucks at it, and who hurts people unintentionally (His only genuine bile is spared for Targaryans.) , while Cersei WANTS to be queen and does all her actions intentionally. It is totally a good faith reading to find Robert personable and charming and to find Cersei vile. You’re SUPPOSED to find Cersei vile. The abuse she suffered at the hands of Robert, her father’s neglect of her, and her struggles with the role of women is meant to add layers to her decisions, her embrace of Robert’s worst traits, and her misogyny (Also one of Robert’s traits, but Cersei is one of the most misogynist character in a book series that also includes a theocrat who doesn’t consider women capable of true thought) not excuse it or make it sympathetic. Your problem here is with the story of ASOIAF.
Edit:
CW: SA
Like even if we can both agree that Robert isn’t a moral character. The difference in tone between the two is just not very conducive to your argument here. Robert mean spirited jokes involved sending a squire out for a nonexistent doohickey, Cersei’s mean spirited jokes is gleefully taunting a child with how they’re about to be raped.
Robert is an abuser and no amount of affability should obscure that to anyone who’s paying attention. I get why he’s liked, and you analysis of that is good (besides the idea that he only hurts people accidentally, disagree with that.). And i think you make a good point that the problem is mostly in ASOIAF/GOT rather than the fanbase for simply following cues. But it does still bother me that fans dont seem to get that Robert is an abuser.
that they rarely get the credit of being “cool” the same way male villains do
This is my main problem i think. The Littlefinger example is probably better than the Robert one in that sense. But i have seen a lot of feminist analysis pointing out Cersei being hated for the same traits men are liked for, and Robert is often an example. Another one i didnt bring up though is Tywin.
Also i think the real example of fanbase mysoginy is the treatment of early season Sansa, as she was despised for acting like a normal teenage girl. Always been a source of bitterness for me that she was my fave starting around Blackwater, and other people getting on board when she “got cool”.
But she didnt fit the “older blonde woman who is hated by the fandom unreasonably” point i was trying to make lol.
Not trying to argue against most of your points, but if you re-read book 1, you realize that people hate Sansa because (at the beginning of the story) she’s a little brat who brazenly ignores what her father tells her to do and, in so doing, gets him killed and her entire families’ lives (her own included) utterly destroyed (remember that while Ned idiotically warns Cersei that he’s going to rat her out, it’s Sansa who shows up and provides Cersei with all of the details of Ned’s plans, in the process of whining about having to leave the city).
Obviously she grows a great deal as a character over the course of the series, but it’s very easy to start hating her early on, and that kind of impression can be hard to let go of.
Sansa is a child who screws over her sister in a childish way in pursuit of a fairytale romance, and suffers rape, humiliation, violence, trauma and hourly threats for it.
She is an idealist who believes all t he conflict is a misunderstanding that could easily be fixed because she’s like 12, and sees her family die for it.
Sansa is absolutely overhated as a character in a way that’s obviously rooted in part by misogyny.
Yeah, I agree, and I don’t think I even disagreed with anything you’ve said here when this conversation started anyway, but even moreso now after reconsidering the source material more carefully. When I wrote this I was offering the reasons why people might come to hate her early on, based on my own feelings during my first re-read (“dammit Sansa why would you go to Cersei, of all people? AAAAAA you’re literally getting your father killed right now!”), and also then probably affording people too much benefit of the doubt for not recognizing her character’s growth as the series continues.
I still view early Sansa as a very flawed character (terms like entitled and self-centered spring to mind), but I think my own issues led me to hold her more accountable than was fair (see elsewhere in the thread).
Edit: Actually, I think I do have to point out one flaw here:
CW:SA
In the book series, at least, I don’t believe Sansa is ever raped; the girl who suffers at Bolton’s hands is actually Jeyne Poole.
She is not raped by Joffrey. She’s groomed by Petyr, and possibly assaulted by The Hound. She is also stripped naked in public which I would count as sexual assault.
Holding child charachters to adult standards will never sit well with me. The girl hadnt had her period yet.
Nah feminists have written in depth how the hatred for Sansa early on is completely unfair and mysoginist. People hate teen girls who act like teen girls. Not backing down on that one.
I never cared much for the Sansa story, because the whole thing leans way too much into GRRMs weird thing for subverting character archetypes by subjecting a 12 year old to torture that’s quite frankly really creepy.
Tbf, in the books Sansa has a pretty consistent growth arc so far. Its only in the show where they go backwards and put her back into torture situations with Ramsay. Since Ramsay marries and tortures another charachter in the books, we know thats not happening there.
I also dont think Sansa’s much of an “archetype subversion”. Innocent naive girl who goes through abuse, but then learns to be shrewd and “play the game” is her arc. I never saw her story in the books as unnecessary torture porn. I dont even think most of it is on page or described in the books? Putting her through it on screen is more of a show thing, again.
Idk Cersei’s literal first action on screen is banging her twin brother and having a child pushed out of a window. I’d say the hate is pretty deserved lol
Ive commented on the rest of this, read my posts, but can i say something about the incest? I dont hate either of them for that. Neither of them is a predator. Not that incest is acceptable irl, just in this case not a reason i should hate either of them. Neither of them is the predator in their story, its just a mutually toxic relationship. The reason with incest irl is bad is that theres nearly always a predator in irl incest.
Something about mom-aged blonde women drives TV fans a little wild for some reason. Also see the reaction to Walking Dead Andrea. And while she is obviously evil, i always found the Cersei hatedom a little dissproportional. Especially early on.
CW: SA
Cersei spends half her time plotting sexual assault and the other half doing murder. She is a terrible person. What are we doing here.
Her first noteworthy on screen deed in both book and series is incest followed by arguing for the murder of a child. She creates a systemic murderous purge of dwarves, she lets one of her children sexually assault the other, she’s a violent misogynist, and she’s not good at anything. She’s incredibly hateable, that’s the point of the character. If people think she’s a monster then people have understood what’s happening in the story. She’s like opposite skylar
Yeah but if you hate her with a fury and dont hate certain men in the show its still disproportional. Hating Cersei and loving Robert is very common in the fandom. Or hating Cersei but considering Littlefinger love to hate.
Also, again, a lot of the depths of her evil do not manifest until later on. Yes she argues for killing Bran but the level of spitting vitriol she got in early seasons compared to male charachters other than Joffrey was simply not proportional to her actual actions.
I never argued that youre not supposed to hate her. Its not the same as Skyler.
It just was, I’m sorry. Cersei is supposed to be hated. You can argue that there’s a misogynist tinge to the fact that the evil characters who we are meant to hate are disproportionately women, and that they rarely get the credit of being “cool” the same way male villains do. But Cersei was always hateable, from her first moment on the pages to her last moment on screen she spends most of her time either actively engaging in evil or being just kind of an unlikable dick.
The difference between Robert and Cersei is that Robert is a friend of the “main character” when introduced, outwardly charming, cracks jokes, and is a total dipshit who didn’t set out to be king, who sucks at it, and who hurts people unintentionally (His only genuine bile is spared for Targaryans.) , while Cersei WANTS to be queen and does all her actions intentionally. It is totally a good faith reading to find Robert personable and charming and to find Cersei vile. You’re SUPPOSED to find Cersei vile. The abuse she suffered at the hands of Robert, her father’s neglect of her, and her struggles with the role of women is meant to add layers to her decisions, her embrace of Robert’s worst traits, and her misogyny (Also one of Robert’s traits, but Cersei is one of the most misogynist character in a book series that also includes a theocrat who doesn’t consider women capable of true thought) not excuse it or make it sympathetic. Your problem here is with the story of ASOIAF.
Edit:
CW: SA
Like even if we can both agree that Robert isn’t a moral character. The difference in tone between the two is just not very conducive to your argument here. Robert mean spirited jokes involved sending a squire out for a nonexistent doohickey, Cersei’s mean spirited jokes is gleefully taunting a child with how they’re about to be raped.
Robert is an abuser and no amount of affability should obscure that to anyone who’s paying attention. I get why he’s liked, and you analysis of that is good (besides the idea that he only hurts people accidentally, disagree with that.). And i think you make a good point that the problem is mostly in ASOIAF/GOT rather than the fanbase for simply following cues. But it does still bother me that fans dont seem to get that Robert is an abuser.
This is my main problem i think. The Littlefinger example is probably better than the Robert one in that sense. But i have seen a lot of feminist analysis pointing out Cersei being hated for the same traits men are liked for, and Robert is often an example. Another one i didnt bring up though is Tywin.
Also i think the real example of fanbase mysoginy is the treatment of early season Sansa, as she was despised for acting like a normal teenage girl. Always been a source of bitterness for me that she was my fave starting around Blackwater, and other people getting on board when she “got cool”.
But she didnt fit the “older blonde woman who is hated by the fandom unreasonably” point i was trying to make lol.
Not trying to argue against most of your points, but if you re-read book 1, you realize that people hate Sansa because (at the beginning of the story) she’s a little brat who brazenly ignores what her father tells her to do and, in so doing, gets him killed and her entire families’ lives (her own included) utterly destroyed (remember that while Ned idiotically warns Cersei that he’s going to rat her out, it’s Sansa who shows up and provides Cersei with all of the details of Ned’s plans, in the process of whining about having to leave the city).
Obviously she grows a great deal as a character over the course of the series, but it’s very easy to start hating her early on, and that kind of impression can be hard to let go of.
CW:SA
Sansa is a child who screws over her sister in a childish way in pursuit of a fairytale romance, and suffers rape, humiliation, violence, trauma and hourly threats for it. She is an idealist who believes all t he conflict is a misunderstanding that could easily be fixed because she’s like 12, and sees her family die for it. Sansa is absolutely overhated as a character in a way that’s obviously rooted in part by misogyny.
Yeah, I agree, and I don’t think I even disagreed with anything you’ve said here when this conversation started anyway, but even moreso now after reconsidering the source material more carefully. When I wrote this I was offering the reasons why people might come to hate her early on, based on my own feelings during my first re-read (“dammit Sansa why would you go to Cersei, of all people? AAAAAA you’re literally getting your father killed right now!”), and also then probably affording people too much benefit of the doubt for not recognizing her character’s growth as the series continues.
I still view early Sansa as a very flawed character (terms like entitled and self-centered spring to mind), but I think my own issues led me to hold her more accountable than was fair (see elsewhere in the thread).
Edit: Actually, I think I do have to point out one flaw here:
CW:SA
In the book series, at least, I don’t believe Sansa is ever raped; the girl who suffers at Bolton’s hands is actually Jeyne Poole.
Also, please add a CW for the SA reference.
spoiler
She is not raped by Joffrey. She’s groomed by Petyr, and possibly assaulted by The Hound. She is also stripped naked in public which I would count as sexual assault.
.
Holding child charachters to adult standards will never sit well with me. The girl hadnt had her period yet.
Nah feminists have written in depth how the hatred for Sansa early on is completely unfair and mysoginist. People hate teen girls who act like teen girls. Not backing down on that one.
I would point you to the interaction between Sansa, Arya, Joffrey, and the butcher’s boy. She is not just a teen girl, she’s a shitty person.Not going to convince me to apply the term “shitty person” to a prepubescent child. Reassess how you analyze child characters.
Book 1 Sansa consistently made bad choices, but she was also caught in awful situations. Kids make bad choices. Their brains arent developed.
I never cared much for the Sansa story, because the whole thing leans way too much into GRRMs weird thing for subverting character archetypes by subjecting a 12 year old to torture that’s quite frankly really creepy.
Tbf, in the books Sansa has a pretty consistent growth arc so far. Its only in the show where they go backwards and put her back into torture situations with Ramsay. Since Ramsay marries and tortures another charachter in the books, we know thats not happening there.
I also dont think Sansa’s much of an “archetype subversion”. Innocent naive girl who goes through abuse, but then learns to be shrewd and “play the game” is her arc. I never saw her story in the books as unnecessary torture porn. I dont even think most of it is on page or described in the books? Putting her through it on screen is more of a show thing, again.
Is she not complicit in Bran’s maiming in the first episode (and also early in the first book)?
Oh yeah. Not saying that she’s a good person, just that the hate was disspropoetional. Also, didnt say this, but the same people will like Robert.
But early season Sansa is the real example of unfair mysoginist hate in that fandom.
100%
Idk Cersei’s literal first action on screen is banging her twin brother and having a child pushed out of a window. I’d say the hate is pretty deserved lol
Ive commented on the rest of this, read my posts, but can i say something about the incest? I dont hate either of them for that. Neither of them is a predator. Not that incest is acceptable irl, just in this case not a reason i should hate either of them. Neither of them is the predator in their story, its just a mutually toxic relationship. The reason with incest irl is bad is that theres nearly always a predator in irl incest.
I think short hair features often in this trope too.