hey folks, here’s a quick update on our decision to defederate from
sh.itjust.works! (and here’s sh.itjust.works
[https://sh.itjust.works/post/129725]’s side of this update) we got in touch
with the head admin over there, The Dude, and we had a pretty good chat about
our concerns and reason for defederating. while immediate re-federation is just
bluntly off the table with the rudimentary state of Lemmy’s moderation tools, we
now have a pretty good idea of the roadmap to refederating with them. we think
we’ll eventually be able to do this, although we don’t have a timetable on when
yet. we’re also now collaborating with him on how to move forward–and in the
weeks and months to come we’ll be pushing to expedite the process of developing
some of the necessary tools. this decision has really helped us make connections
that can hopefully realize those tools both on the desktop side and in apps
being developed for Lemmy. we’re also hoping to collaborate with other Lemmy
administrators who have needs like our own, or just generally want more granular
tools at their disposal. we did also get in touch with the lemmy.world owner
prior to defederating to share the concerns that prompted us to
defederate[^1]–but we have not received any communication from him since it was
levied, so there’s no roadmap at all there as of now. we’re always open to
reconsidering and collaborating to end the defederation with him, but for now
the earliest i can give you is “when mod tools are in a better state”. that’s
all for now folks. if any new significant developments take place we’ll announce
them as needed. [^1]: we’re only bringing this up now because it was just not
useful information in the context of our announcement. it almost certainly would
have been interpreted as some sort of callousness and/or brought unnecessary
sectarianism and grief to him. at the end of the day he has his reasons and
desires for running lemmy.world how he does, and we have ours for running Beehaw
as we do. because of social and technological circumstances those are just
incompatible right now, and that’s fine.
Wasn’t it established this type of behavior isn’t acceptable towards lgbt people? Dismissing their hurt caused by others and clearly gas lighting them?
It only really encourages it to show no punishment for clearly abusive actions though. It says in the rules of the community that stuff like that is clearly not tolerated
There’s a difference between not tolerating behavior and from sweeping behavior under the rug. A public show of pushing back is useful to demonstrate what we stand for.
Yeah adding to this if you just removed every post (like some subreddits) then no one knows what was removed and why. Sure with lemmys mod log you could deep dive in to find the reason (if given) but publicly saying “calm down not welcome behavior” can be a useful tool to reinforce to everyone where the administrators stand. It also provides a transparency to everyone else to also allow us to keep our admins in check. Well as far as we can given we don’t own the instance as users.
If we removed everything we disagreed with, that would be an echo chamber of specific opinion. Not ideal and not wanted. Having a discussion about disagreements is more apt to change someone’s view versus just removing it entirely.
This is tiring for those whom are being attacked by that stuff in covert manner. Think about it from the minority persons perspective, day in day out they see abusive content, in media, their home and in discussion forums. It doesn’t help to be forced to see this in a safe space either. The stuff i link in this post isn’t good for the mental health and wellbeing of people.
It is not an attack to simply express disagreement, and not everyone who disagrees is coming from a place of hostility.
The whole point of a forum is for healthy dialogue. You can’t just go around accusing everyone who disagrees with you as being abusive and disingenuous.
It clearly is to the people who responded to the post i linked. They sure seemed upset. The persons right to exist and the way they were treated, isn’t a “disagreement”. Please read the linked post
That is very disingenuous and rather hyperbolic to say this. A person talking about their lived experiences and having someone dismiss them in a safe space only for admin to act like removing traumatising content is somehow “what we disagree with”?
I don’t recall anybody asking for “every” post be deleted, just abusive or traumatizing ones about or towards marginalized people. It’s reasonable to not retraumatise whom are regularly treated poorly by so much of society. please stop using hyperbolic and disingenuous arguments. I ask you to please read the linked posts and understand the person whom was attacked side.
To solve this problem of seeing “deleted by mod” all over, a reason can be posted by the mod as a comment explaining why if needed.
It’s also just exhausting to see this stuff over and over and over, when you’re the target. Leaving it up when it’s so clearly just bigotry with some icing on top just lets it keep hurting people and changes the culture to one that tolerates that hatred if it’s said ““politely””. It lets the bigots feel like they can hide under the " be nice" rule even though tolerance for intolerance isn’t supposed to be what that means.
It also means that if I hope something blatantly bigoted is deleted, I’m now incentivized to not reply to it at all, just leaving it to stand without objection and with however many upvotes it gets, since apparently my replying is being treated as a reason to keep the bigotry up. That just feels gross.
I will absolutely leave here if this kind of thing keeps being tolerated. I want a place I can exist without having bigotry thrown in my face, not somewhere that I’m expected to put up with bigots in order to maybe, possibly, somehow educate them. That is not my job; I just want to exist without having to be constantly on-guard.
We’ve talked about this a bit in depth in our philosophy documents, but not nearly enough in depth to get all of our thoughts on page in a coherent manner. We’re working on accelerating a piece of mod philosophy on this specific topic to help you and others understand where we sit on issues like this.
Thank you for your reply. May we message privately please? What you say is valid and I agree you and others shouldn’t have to continues being fighting for your right to peacefully live your life even inside of “safe space” particularly just makes this extra awful. Them allowing that content to stand up violates the whole spirit of a " safe space", they claim to be aiming for.
It only really encourages it to show no punishment for clearly abusive actions though. It says in the rules of the community that stuff like that is clearly not tolerated
There’s a difference between not tolerating behavior and from sweeping behavior under the rug. A public show of pushing back is useful to demonstrate what we stand for.
Yeah adding to this if you just removed every post (like some subreddits) then no one knows what was removed and why. Sure with lemmys mod log you could deep dive in to find the reason (if given) but publicly saying “calm down not welcome behavior” can be a useful tool to reinforce to everyone where the administrators stand. It also provides a transparency to everyone else to also allow us to keep our admins in check. Well as far as we can given we don’t own the instance as users.
If we removed everything we disagreed with, that would be an echo chamber of specific opinion. Not ideal and not wanted. Having a discussion about disagreements is more apt to change someone’s view versus just removing it entirely.
Yup. Doesn’t help to hide this stuff. We all need to band together and support each other in shouting it down and educating.
This is tiring for those whom are being attacked by that stuff in covert manner. Think about it from the minority persons perspective, day in day out they see abusive content, in media, their home and in discussion forums. It doesn’t help to be forced to see this in a safe space either. The stuff i link in this post isn’t good for the mental health and wellbeing of people.
It is not an attack to simply express disagreement, and not everyone who disagrees is coming from a place of hostility.
The whole point of a forum is for healthy dialogue. You can’t just go around accusing everyone who disagrees with you as being abusive and disingenuous.
It clearly is to the people who responded to the post i linked. They sure seemed upset. The persons right to exist and the way they were treated, isn’t a “disagreement”. Please read the linked post
That is very disingenuous and rather hyperbolic to say this. A person talking about their lived experiences and having someone dismiss them in a safe space only for admin to act like removing traumatising content is somehow “what we disagree with”?
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Can you clarify?
My point is your comment is disingenuous and unhelpful. Have you read what i was referring too?
Edit: Sorry, I mixed up tabs and got confused about the subject matter.
I don’t recall anybody asking for “every” post be deleted, just abusive or traumatizing ones about or towards marginalized people. It’s reasonable to not retraumatise whom are regularly treated poorly by so much of society. please stop using hyperbolic and disingenuous arguments. I ask you to please read the linked posts and understand the person whom was attacked side.
To solve this problem of seeing “deleted by mod” all over, a reason can be posted by the mod as a comment explaining why if needed.
It’s also just exhausting to see this stuff over and over and over, when you’re the target. Leaving it up when it’s so clearly just bigotry with some icing on top just lets it keep hurting people and changes the culture to one that tolerates that hatred if it’s said ““politely””. It lets the bigots feel like they can hide under the " be nice" rule even though tolerance for intolerance isn’t supposed to be what that means.
It also means that if I hope something blatantly bigoted is deleted, I’m now incentivized to not reply to it at all, just leaving it to stand without objection and with however many upvotes it gets, since apparently my replying is being treated as a reason to keep the bigotry up. That just feels gross.
I will absolutely leave here if this kind of thing keeps being tolerated. I want a place I can exist without having bigotry thrown in my face, not somewhere that I’m expected to put up with bigots in order to maybe, possibly, somehow educate them. That is not my job; I just want to exist without having to be constantly on-guard.
We’ve talked about this a bit in depth in our philosophy documents, but not nearly enough in depth to get all of our thoughts on page in a coherent manner. We’re working on accelerating a piece of mod philosophy on this specific topic to help you and others understand where we sit on issues like this.
Thank you for your reply. May we message privately please? What you say is valid and I agree you and others shouldn’t have to continues being fighting for your right to peacefully live your life even inside of “safe space” particularly just makes this extra awful. Them allowing that content to stand up violates the whole spirit of a " safe space", they claim to be aiming for.