- cross-posted to:
- wolnyinternet@szmer.info
- psyop@szmer.info
- news@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- wolnyinternet@szmer.info
- psyop@szmer.info
- news@beehaw.org
The German foreign ministry, which commissioned the study after suspecting it was being targeted by bots, said the findings highlighted the need for governments to systematically tackle the growing number of disinformation campaigns and recognise the effect they could have on elections.
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Democratic countries are so far behind in this kind of asymmetrical information war. The Kremlin and now also CCP have been blasting propaganda and bad information on social media for years, and democracies are still flat footed.
How is that supposed to look?
How do you differentiate legit free speech, from concerted propaganda efforts? Especially as information is very volatile nowadays. How do you mark false information, without creating systems abused to opress investigative exposures and whistle blowers?
Russia and China dont need to protect free speech, press and information.
Social Networks have more meta information than you see on their frontend. It would be possible for them to find those networks based on who they follow, retweet, like and engage with. Or maybe check if they only write in German, but only post during business hours in St. Petersburg …
St. Petersburg is just two hours earlier in winter and one hour earlier in sommer bc. of summer time.
It is very difficult to acertain a single user to be a “bot” either as a true machine program or as a paid troll. By those metrics you can observe larger efforts. E.g. is the spread of time windows of certain accounts, which write for a specific point and argument significantly different from the overall users that engage with this kind of topic?
Is there a specific pattern how many accounts interact with specific topics, e.g. are they always “first on the scene”?
But for an individual account it is quite difficult to identify. Could be that it is just one person getting up early. Could be that this person loves to tweet over his morning coffee.
I can highly recommend this presentation on The Rise and Fall of “Social Bot” research where the presentator concluded most metrics to be used in research until then to be arbitrary and giving many examples of real users that were considered as bots by those poor metrics. It is from the end of 2021, so i assume the research has improved in the past 2 years.
The key takeway remains though. There is no simple way to identify individual accounts as “bots”.
Time zone is just one indicator that doesn’t says much by itself. However if you have a handful of indicators, it becomes easier to positively identify bots.
Fraud detection for online shops works in a similar way, where they check your location, IP, delivery address and other metrics to assign a risk score to each order.
Yeah, it’s a major disadvantage for countries with more freedom. Some obvious steps would be public information campaigns and working with and regulating social media companies.
But those aren’t easy solutions, especially since the Kremlin has an asset running for US president trying to divide the country and weaken it’s support for other democracies.
Or improving funding of the schooling system so that we can figure it out ourselves. Here in Australia we are embarrassingly over funding sport rather then education. I imagine USA is similar.
We deserve to have our stupidity exploited by the enemy. I kind of admire their strategy.
That solution will take more than 15 years to see fruit. We need solutions now.
That mentality is what got us into this mess. Democratic governments don’t plan beyond the election cycle.
Also, kids influence their parents.
In the meantime Australia could also invest in the national broadcaster to educate adults regarding history and critical thinking. Instead it has been gutted by defunding. Informative radio shows used to have transcripts available etc
Ok.
How do we stop republicunts form their 40 year quest to destroy public education when we can’t convince half the nation that Jan6 was even a bad thing?
Using the power of ignorant and loud constituents, propaganda, media manipulation and Reagan’s 1st commandment (thou shalt not speak ill of other republicunts) they have made their actions immune to scrutiny and have the political clout to get their bad actors on or leading every educational government org.
And that’s not even SCRATCHING the surface of how many school boards have republicunts on them that both do not have school age children and have zero vested interest in improving school systems. How do you even fight back on that now?
No, the only way we will manage to get back to a reasonable 1st world education system is if magically every shitheel that voted for trump was thanos snapped away.
I don’t want to promote ‘state media’ per se, as that is often an abused form of ‘information and news’, but maybe we do need an official public distribution of warnings for current foreign lies and propaganda campaigns.
Possibly require social media, and typical sources of such propaganda campaigns to display a banner with warnings of recent things that are being spread and not true.
Sadly also a thing that could be abused, but we do need new tools in our toolbox.
That’s kind of a thing that only pro-propaganda people say.
It’s pretty blatant, propaganda focuses on emotional appeal and not factual information. Usually several forms of intellectual dishonesty are part of it as well.
Any side by side comparison of propaganda material and legitimate sincere discourse makes this plain.
To summarize beforehand. I think you are underestimating propaganda as a whole and you are significantly underestimating the propaganda capeabilities of western countries. This could also be seen as the success of western propaganda as opposed to russian or chinese propaganda.
I have the feeling that you believe propaganda is plain to discern and subvertive efforts, which are common by all sorts of actors in liberal democracies too, are easy to identify.
But this is not the case. The emotional manipulation can be very subtile. Media outlets that are considered highly reputeable are also engaging, sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowningly in larger propaganda efforts.
I highly recommend you to read manufacturing consent, for an in depth analysis how government propaganda has been an integral part of western democracies. It certainly is not lacking behind Russia or China. If you think these kind of actions were in the past, have a read about the framing of Julian Assange and Edward Snowden, when they made information about US war crimes and surveillance public.
There is numerous historical examples, where the US successfully used propaganda in other countries as an offensive mean, to help people lose or gain power. And those that were couped into power more often than not were no democrats. There is no reason as to why similiar offensive use of Propaganda by western countries wouldn’t occur in other countries today too.
What you, me and everyone else considers factual information and intellectually honest information is mostly created in reference to our personal believes, about how the world or certain issues are. To take an example: You see a media report about an US politician being accused of corruption. Neither you, me or enyone else has access to, and can verify the informations on which the accusation is made. I bet with you, that your subconcious or even your concious will evaluate the same article as more or less plausible depending on whether the accused politician is a Republican or a Democrat and which of the parties you are more or less aligned with.
Oh man nearly everything I read here is carefully crafted bullshit and english is not your first language.
Enjoy your block.
Did you have a bad day and wanna talk about it?
Hast du einige Ahnung auf welcher Community du gerade bist?
Pour beaucoup des gens ici, l’anglais est la deuxième ou la troisième langue et puis c’est possible et aussi complètement normal que on fait des petites erreurs.
Beetje meer respect graag.
Hast du einige Ahnung auf welcher Community du gerade bist?
Verstehen Sie, dass es Lemmy-Föderationen gibt?
Beetje meer respect graag.
I don’t respect propagandists, you are free to of course.
Ok, let me be more specific then: They are using the same tensing errors and making the same phonetic drifts that Slavic root speakers working on the clock make.
Is that unsubtle enough for you?
Ok, let me be more specific then: They are using the same tensing errors and making the same phonetic drifts that Slavic root speakers working on the clock make.
Is that unsubtle enough for you?
Yep the anti-Slavic racism is quite clear now.
(Btw I’m impressed that you can read phonetic drifts)
Is it just me, or do we see “study” after study finding things we all knew already? What bothers more than stating the obvious is that nothing happens. We all just carry on as is.
It is more proof. But you are right: What we need is action.
Stuff “we all know already” is kinda worthless. Ideally, politics should be made based on evidence, not gut feelings or anecdotes. So studies that give evidence are a good thing, even if the results were expected.
It’s amazing anyone still uses that platform…
Half the population has an IQ of 100 or lower.
It’s entirely unsurprising.
A lot of people like porn. So why would they not use a site like X?
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Digital forensic experts in Germany have uncovered a vast, pro-Russia disinformation campaign against the government using tens of thousands of fake accounts on the social media platform X.
The German foreign ministry, which commissioned the study after suspecting it was being targeted by bots, said the findings highlighted the need for governments to systematically tackle the growing number of disinformation campaigns and recognise the effect they could have on elections.
Using specialised monitoring software, the experts uncovered a huge trail of posts over a one-month period from 10 December, which amounted to a sophisticated and concerted onslaught on Berlin’s support for Ukraine.
The overwhelming tone of the messages was the suggestion that the government of Olaf Scholz was neglecting the needs of Germans as a result of its support for Ukraine, both in terms of weapons and aid, as well as by taking in more than a million refugees.
Der Spiegel, which had access to the findings, reported that the fake accounts had matching comments attached to them, often using hashtags popular at the time, such as #Oktoberfest or #Bundesliga, in a concerted effort to reach as wide an audience as possible.
In one of the most impactful fake messages, in terms of the number of people it reached and the amount of feedback it generated, Annalena Baerbock, the foreign minister, appeared to be declaring from her own account on X that government support for Ukraine was crumbling.
The original article contains 582 words, the summary contains 238 words. Saved 59%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
One honest question I have is how effective such a campaign really is. Sometimes I feel like Russian disinformation is used as an excuse when public opinion is genuinely shifting away from the government line.
You saw this as well during the BLM protests in the US, where some liberals accused Russia of instigating the riots.
I live in Germany and I know multiple people that think the best thing to do right now is just accept the losses, get a peace deal, and stop the violence. And I don’t think they are on X.
Just to clarify I’m not saying Russia isn’t trying or that no measures should be taken to limit obviously foreign propaganda, I’m just wondering if it really has that much of an effect.
I don’t understand this weariness you describe. We aren’t even at war, we are comfortably sitting back letting Ukraine do the fighting. All we have to do is throw some money and equipment their way and they essentially fight for our geopolitical interests by proxy.
What’s more, who the fuck are we to tell them to settle and be done with the war, when clearly Russia doesn’t respect any status quo or existing border. Imagine the outrage if it was us at war with, say, France over northrhine-westphalia and everyone was urging us to just concede that territory for the sake of peace.
We should throw billions at Ukraine and place whole orders with our MIC for them, and afterwards still say thank you very much. Because they die we don’t have to.
If others were funding Germany’s war then it would be reasonable to heed their advice lest they withdraw the funding.
The weariness comes from the fact that the people actually dying or getting maimed for life, don’t want to fight anymore. They are getting forcefully conscripted. Most Ukrainians that volunteered are already dead or wounded.
It’s not the only disinformation in Germany. Many in eastern Germany still follow Russian State Propaganda in Form of Sputnik News, Voice of Russia, some small “independent thinkers” websites etc to get “indepent” information, or “a second view”
I know multiple people that think the best thing to do right now is just accept the losses, get a peace deal, and stop the violence.
The problem with this idea is Russia’s track record of broken deals (like accepting Ukraine’s territorial integrity, then invading) and aggressive ambitions (greetings to our Baltic allies). Chances are the last two points are nothing but false hopes and all that remains is “accept the losses”, while Russia prepares to invade the next neighbor. All the good points are also the untrustworthy points. We kind of tried this idea when they took Crimea, and see where it got us.
Russia is an independent actor on the world stage, with a huge military, a huge nuclear arsenal, and a huge economy (ppp). We have to find a way to live peacefully with them because the alternative is a nuclear holocaust.
Russia started a war of aggression, which is THE primary war crime, and should not go unpunished. So relations can probably not be normalized until the current leadership is replaced (which granted might take a while), but a cease fire at least stops the killing.
S, where some liberals accused Russia of instigating the riots.
Literally no one said this…
All I’m seeing in this article is that ruskie trollfarms cranked out both pro and con propaganda, just like they do for literally everything. It is legit actually part of FSB standard practice LONG before they tried to meme. Just look at how their own government news does it constantly.
But I don’t see any parts where it says liberals accused russia of starting the riots.
I see a lot of info about studies that showed that those groups did output a ridiculous amount of memes intending to rile up folks, but I don’t see evidence of liberals blaming the riots on russia.
It’s funny, you’re using russian troll farm techniques and now I’m going to spend a few minutes going over your post history.
I don’t have a sourced archive of all the stupid shit I come across on the internet, but if you google “Russia BLM” there are many articles from liberal newspapers being concerned about the worrying influence of Russia on BLM.
And here is a British politician spreading conspiracy theories about Russia and BLM:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-ferguson-russia/
Have fun in my post history, maybe if you take the first letter of every post it spells out “IM A RUSSIAN TROLL”.
- It’s not unproven they literally paid people to flag the riots I’m not sure why snopes is pussyfooting there.
But again, EVEN THEN, just paying a few people to go out to protest doesn’t start a protest.
They put in effort to make it worse, sure, that’s what they do.
But they didn’t start it. Hell technically BLM didn’t even start it just rode the wave of already high strung public sentiment.
every post it spells out “IM A RUSSIAN TROLL”.
Oh I don’t think you are a russian troll, but I DO think you are a troll that isn’t creative enough to make your own tactics so borrow the well publicly documented format of russian state sponsored trolling.
Something tells me you’ve spent scholarly time reading the Gentleman’s guide to forum disruption.
You stated no one said Russia instigated BLM riots and I gave you a clear example, now you’re just moving the goalposts.
And not everyone with a different worldview than you is a troll, people have different opinions that’s why politics exists.
No you didn’t give a ‘clear example’, and no I am not moving any goalposts. That’s your side’s trick.
You can go play your word games with someone else.
Just because a troll farm paid 2 people to break windows doesn’t mean that those two people started the riot. How fuckdamn naive do you even have to be to believe this?
You’ve literally accused everybody who disagrees with you of either trolling or lying. I think you need a break from the Internet.
I literally haven’t, but you want to make the discussion look that way.
I’m not the troll here.
you don’t need to be on X too be touched by that, X is the media to create a “thinking”, people talk and share the fake news in other platforms
So you know 3 nutjobs that believe the propaganda, good job mate. They may not be on Xitter, but I bet you they are on Telegram, where the worst of Xitter’s content is aggregated.
Russia is destabilizing the west by influencing people like you, which creates a divide. Ever heard of the term “divide and conquer”? It’s a pretty serious thing.
Yes I have heard of that phrase, as have most people I think.
I live in Germany and I know multiple people that think the best thing to do right now is just accept the losses, get a peace deal, and stop the violence.
You also should ask them what to do when Russia will try the trick again somewhere else…
Or better, ask them what part of Germany they are ready to drop off to some other state…
Russia was very explicit in what would happen if the west kept promising NATO membership to Ukraine, and then it did as promised. No such situation exists for any current NATO or EU member state.
To add to this Russia and Ukraine were already de facto at war since 2014, promising a military alliance to a country at war without expecting escalation is just plain stupid.
And just to reiterate, starting a war of aggression is the principal war crime and should not go without consequences. But we do need to live together with Russia on one continent and this requires concessions from both sides, because the alternative is the mass death and destruction that we now see in Ukraine.
Russia was very explicit in what would happen if the west kept promising NATO membership to Ukraine, and then it did as promised. No such situation exists for any current NATO or EU member state.
Also the Budapest Memorandum (1994) was very explicit. But it seems that the fact that Russia infringed it is not really important to you.
To add to this Russia and Ukraine were already de facto at war since 2014, promising a military alliance to a country at war without expecting escalation is just plain stupid.
Like not respecting a signed agreement. But some sort of military alliance was already set 20 years earlier with the Budapest Memorandum, so no, USA and Uk just stick to the agreement they signed.
And NATO arguarbly has problems with someone attacking a neighbour after signing a treaty which ensures protection and acknowledges its sovereignty.
And just to reiterate, starting a war of aggression is the principal war crime and should not go without consequences. But we do need to live together with Russia on one continent and this requires concessions from both sides, because the alternative is the mass death and destruction that we now see in Ukraine.
So, only Ukraine should do some concessions ? What concessions should be made by Russia, in your opinion ? Just stop a war they started ? And learn the lesson that EU/NATO just give up just because we need to live together in the name of peaceful living ?
But let me ask something: if we concede for the “peaceful living”, aside to become the last ally someone want, what would stop Russia (or anyone else for that matter) to try to pull the same trick 5 years from now ? Putin attacked Ukraine again because we make clear to him that he can do whatever he want without the fear of any consequences. I don’t think this is a particularly intelligent thing to do.
And again, which part of your country are you prepared to concede to some attacking actor just for the peaceful living you seems to care so much about ?
Russia was very explicit in its intent of breaking that Memorandum, it does not change the fact that promising NATO was dangerous and stupid. And it was also cynical because NATO membership was impossible so long as the conflict in the Donbas was ongoing, effectively forcing Russia to never back down there.
I’m not saying the Russian government are the good guys or the Western governments are the bad guys, I am saying that big states with big armies have interests and the will to use violence to attain those interests, this is how the world works and we should act accordingly. So if a nuclear power says it is willing to go to war over an alliance membership, it should be taken serious and a peaceful solution should be sought.
Right now I am in favour of a cease fire, this does not mean the occupied territories become Russian, it just means the fighting stops. And at this stage of the war I don’t think one can say with confidence that a continued conflict increases the chance of Ukraine gaining its territories back. All one can say with confidence is that less people die with a cease fire.
On your last question: I don’t have a country, I am a citizen. And if the government (foreign or native) treats me bad enough I might be willing to resist them. But I sure as hell would not want to be conscripted (by any government) to be send into the meat grinder. And if you think differently (and wouldn’t mind a night of bad sleep) I invite you to read up on the fait of Ukrainian conscripts; there is a reason Ukraine has trouble finding new recruits, a very good reason.
Russia was very explicit in its intent of breaking that Memorandum, it does not change the fact that promising NATO was dangerous and stupid. And it was also cynical because NATO membership was impossible so long as the conflict in the Donbas was ongoing, effectively forcing Russia to never back down there.
Nobody is forcing Russia to never back down. For start they could have respected the memorandum and let Ukraine decide what to do as sovereign nation. Nobody forced Russia to invade the Donbas at the time, only their fear that NATO would do who know what. Or the fact that Putin need external enemies to blame for everything bad in Russia
I’m not saying the Russian government are the good guys or the Western governments are the bad guys, I am saying that big states with big armies have interests and the will to use violence to attain those interests, this is how the world works and we should act accordingly. So if a nuclear power says it is willing to go to war over an alliance membership, it should be taken serious and a peaceful solution should be sought.
Oh yes, that will go well. Following your reasoning, to end the war in Ukraine we just need that NATO declare that it is willing to use nuclear weapons over Ukraine joining the alliance. Damn, call the NATO HQ and propose it, the war will be over by the weekend.
While I am all in for a peaceful solution I am also aware that to have peace you need to have both sides to want it, otherwise after a “give me this or else” there will be a “give me that or else”. So if Russia says it is willing to go to war, the answer should be “let’s talk about this and solve peacefully, but keep in mind that if we really go to war over this, we will stand and both of us will be fucked up”.
Then I don’t know how you can make a peace deal with a nation who already demonstrated to be willing to ignore the deal it sign if it is conventient to them. (not that they are the only ones to be honest)Right now I am in favour of a cease fire, this does not mean the occupied territories become Russian, it just means the fighting stops.
And then ? What make you think that a) Russia respect it and b) Russia would concede something ?
On your last question: I don’t have a country, I am a citizen. And if the government (foreign or native) treats me bad enough I might be willing to resist them. But I sure as hell would not want to be conscripted (by any government) to be send into the meat grinder.
Don’t play games, you know exactly what I am asking and the fact that you try so hard to avoid to give a clear answer tell me much more about you than any answer you can give.
And if you think differently (and wouldn’t mind a night of bad sleep) I invite you to read up on the fait of Ukrainian conscripts; there is a reason Ukraine has trouble finding new recruits, a very good reason.
Which leads to the question: since the enemy is brutal we must just concede everything it want ?
And btw, I had read and listen to much worst stories.
Russia wanted to place nukes on Cuba, the US said ‘if you do this there will be war’ so Russia backed down. This did not lead to an all out invasion of Russia, this lead to a de escalation and Billions of people not dying.
I gave you my honest answer, let me ask you a question in return. Why are you not volunteering? Ukraine has a man power problem because even the Ukrainians don’t want to die for this cause. So if it’s so important, why don’t you go there and stand on a Russian landmine so a Ukrainian conscript doesn’t have to.
Russia wanted to place nukes on Cuba, the US said ‘if you do this there will be war’ so Russia backed down. This did not lead to an all out invasion of Russia, this lead to a de escalation and Billions of people not dying.
It is a little more complex than this.
US deployed Jupiter nuclear missiles in Italy and Turkey and URSS, to retaliate, deployed R-12 and R-14 ballistic missiles to Cuba. And before taking any action, US denied the deployment of URSS missiles.
When US aknowledged it, the first option suggested to Kennedy was a air strike on Cuba and an invasion.
What happened is that US put in place what was basically a naval blockade of Cuba (even if they call quarantine to avoid war related terms) and then started to talk.
The end result was that officially URSS retired the missiles and bombers from Cuba, and US agree to non invade Cuba and secretly retired the missiles deployed in Turkey (not sure about Italy).But I am sure that you understand that this worked exactly because the “if you do this there will be war” was a credible threat ans was sustained by actions (the blockade)
Now, in Ukraine if you propose a cease fire what actually can put on the table to make Russia back down from the invasion ? A deal which will be ignored in [choose your number] years ? Let Russia keep what they gained and go without repercussions so they can pull the trick again in [choose your number] years ? Do you really think that Ukraine would accept to lose part of their terrirories (which btw are the ones witn more resources like gas and oil) ?
I agree with you, we should find a way to stop the war. I simply don’t see how being accommodating with Russia will make it when the root cause of this war is that we let Russia think that they can do whatever they want without any consequences.
I gave you my honest answer, let me ask you a question in return. Why are you not volunteering? Ukraine has a man power problem because even the Ukrainians don’t want to die for this cause. So if it’s so important, why don’t you go there and stand on a Russian landmine so a Ukrainian conscript doesn’t have to.
I am too old and no more phisically fit.
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