Here’s the thing, as I see it. Meat eaters don’t genuinely care about the ethics of meat. They give no shits about factory farming. So lab grown meat won’t be popular until it becomes significantly cheaper than standard factory farming. And even then conservatives will insist on eating real meat for ideological reasons, just like they do today.
(I mean, look at the impossible burgers. They were damn near identical to ground beef, and at a similar price point. But similar wasn’t good enough - they didn’t get it cheaper than actual ground beef so it ended up just a brief fad.)
And lab grown meat doesn’t have the short supply chain of a live animal in a field. Even factory farming at its most factoriest is pretty straightforward - grow corn, feed it to pigs in tiny cages, pump them full of antibiotics, repeat. Lab grown meat doesn’t have the cruelty factor but the complexity of its supply chain and the amount of artificial inputs it requires, not only make it antithetical to solarpunk philosophy in a different way, but make it highly unlikely it’ll ever be competitive price-wise.
What we need is a pre-industrial-revolution attitude towards food. Our calories should be primarily vegetarian and vegan, grown naturally from the soil. Food shouldn’t be an industrial product. And there’s nothing more industrial than lab-grown meat.
Where is impossible just a fad? I feel it’s pretty much impossible (lol) to find a black bean or other veggie burger in a restaurant now, while everywhere (even burger king) has impossible or beyond. But this is in Berkeley so it’s highly likely I’m just in a bubble.
In the developing world, impossible burgers & beyond meat are nowhere to be found. I only know of a single restaraunt in my entire country that sells a beyond meat burger (at 4x the price of a normal beef burger).
Ahh fair enough. I actually saw a good amount in Bengaluru last time I was there, but India is likely an outlier with a specific reason they have pursued beef alternatives. But thinking elsewhere I’ve been somewhat recently (e.g. central america) I think you are right
Meat eaters don’t genuinely care about the ethics of meat. They give no shits about factory farming.
I do and will switch to lab grown meat as soon as it’s available for ethical reasons. Clearly I’m not invested enough in the issue to go vegan, but I don’t think I’m alone here. I like meat. I can have meat without animals having to suffer? Sounds good to me, even if it’s more expensive.
I think you stereotyping a bit. Everyday people don’t feel strongly about food in either direction, but if they see meat in a shop advertised as “no animal had to die for this”, many will think “that’s nice” and buy it.
You are chosing pleasure over an animal not being stabbed in the neck. Don’t give in to the illusion of giving a shit. At least admit that you don’t. Have a fucking spine.
My point was many people would choose the more ethical option to get the same product, if one is available. As proven by various “green” options in other product categories being popular.
I’m not sure what point are you trying to make now. It’s seems like some no true Scotsman.
Certainly an… unconventional example to apply it on, but you got the gist of the idea, yes.
A less edgy example could be “I would buy drinks in a returnable glass bottle, but sadly everything is sold in disposable plastic bottles where I live, so I don’t have that option”. If you prefer such sexual examples, you do you.
Nah, I like my analogy better, since it highlights the direct injustice done to the individual.
The point is, you do have the choice to simply stop, you just don’t give a shit about animals, just like someone who values their sexual pleasure over the bodily autonomy of their victims doesn’t give a shit about them either.
Cool! Anyway, your point is lab grown meat won’t be popular, my point is it will be. Now that your analogy helped you understand, I guess you agree with me now, since you are changing the topic to different points like “you do have the choice to simply stop”, which were never disputed.
There is an issue with the idea of pre industrial production. In ecoremediation we need to rewild large tracts of land to restore biodiversity. Most of this land is now used for farming and while a good portion of that land for half the crops in rotation goes to animal feed, it wouldn’t be enough to simultaneously feed the population and rewild enough land if we stick to pre industrial methods.
What we need is a clean, sustainable industry of agriculture. We are already on the fragile precipe of this new form. In the Netherlands we can find automated greenhouse operations that are increasingly becoming ecologically sane in their use of pesticides, fertilizers etc. They achieve an output almost double of traditional farming on a quarter of the space on method alone. In both the netherlands and singapore vertical farm projects are started to integrate city planning and farming, further reducing the need for space. In northern europe kelp farms are started to farm kelp and seaweed.
There are probably many more examples but they are all post industrial practices which rely heavily on the scalability of industry.
It really is the only way forward if we truly want to restore the plenty provided by a balance in nature. Restore the biodiversity, rewild the world, use less space.
I also think that there is some much potential in the dishes we eat. Western Cousine is mostly structured around a protein and side dishes but there is so much more out there. We could have a much healthier, more diverse and interesting diet that is basically better in every regard and doesn’t require highly processed plant proteins to work. But this requires a certain amount of dedication and resources on the cooking side of things. We should start taking proper food for the population more serious as a national health concern and provide a easy way to get cheap and healthy food for everyone. This is also vital because of how the society changed, more single households and less of the traditional family. In my naive mind I never understood why food is not something like health care, water services, sewage or what ever. Everyone needs it to survive. This would be better for health (care systems), the planet and local food independence. Instead we let huge food companies sell us more sawdust per candy bar every year and exploit workers in the south.
The moment I can swap to lab based meat, I will. I care about the suffering caused by my diet, but I don’t have the mental capacity to change it right now. I have no idea what proportion of the meat eating population is like me, but it might be more than you expect.
You can go ahead and call me a terrible person, I don’t care, I’ve given up self hatred for lent. Just trying to do the best I can.
If you’re in the right space for some advice on going veggie, I found it surprisingly easy. Just think about what meals you eat that don’t have meat in them or where they are optional. Spaghetti? Extra peppers and mushrooms instead of ground beef. Tacos? Beans instead of pork. Burgers? Black bean and corn burgers are legit better than the impossible burgers, no lie (they’re in the frozen section). Literally just think of like three things you like that have no meat in them (yes, donuts and pizza count) and just try making those for a week. Add on more stuff as you think of it. I went from pork chops for dinner every day to fully vegetarian in a couple weeks. I couldn’t believe it.
I might give it a go sometime and see if I can slowly try to ramp it up. I don’t cook a ton and when I do it basically has to be one of the things that’s familiar to me to make because if I try to plan to make something new it’ll never end up happening
Here’s the thing, as I see it. Meat eaters don’t genuinely care about the ethics of meat. They give no shits about factory farming. So lab grown meat won’t be popular until it becomes significantly cheaper than standard factory farming. And even then conservatives will insist on eating real meat for ideological reasons, just like they do today.
(I mean, look at the impossible burgers. They were damn near identical to ground beef, and at a similar price point. But similar wasn’t good enough - they didn’t get it cheaper than actual ground beef so it ended up just a brief fad.)
And lab grown meat doesn’t have the short supply chain of a live animal in a field. Even factory farming at its most factoriest is pretty straightforward - grow corn, feed it to pigs in tiny cages, pump them full of antibiotics, repeat. Lab grown meat doesn’t have the cruelty factor but the complexity of its supply chain and the amount of artificial inputs it requires, not only make it antithetical to solarpunk philosophy in a different way, but make it highly unlikely it’ll ever be competitive price-wise.
What we need is a pre-industrial-revolution attitude towards food. Our calories should be primarily vegetarian and vegan, grown naturally from the soil. Food shouldn’t be an industrial product. And there’s nothing more industrial than lab-grown meat.
Where is impossible just a fad? I feel it’s pretty much impossible (lol) to find a black bean or other veggie burger in a restaurant now, while everywhere (even burger king) has impossible or beyond. But this is in Berkeley so it’s highly likely I’m just in a bubble.
In the developing world, impossible burgers & beyond meat are nowhere to be found. I only know of a single restaraunt in my entire country that sells a beyond meat burger (at 4x the price of a normal beef burger).
Ahh fair enough. I actually saw a good amount in Bengaluru last time I was there, but India is likely an outlier with a specific reason they have pursued beef alternatives. But thinking elsewhere I’ve been somewhat recently (e.g. central america) I think you are right
I do and will switch to lab grown meat as soon as it’s available for ethical reasons. Clearly I’m not invested enough in the issue to go vegan, but I don’t think I’m alone here. I like meat. I can have meat without animals having to suffer? Sounds good to me, even if it’s more expensive.
I think you stereotyping a bit. Everyday people don’t feel strongly about food in either direction, but if they see meat in a shop advertised as “no animal had to die for this”, many will think “that’s nice” and buy it.
You are chosing pleasure over an animal not being stabbed in the neck. Don’t give in to the illusion of giving a shit. At least admit that you don’t. Have a fucking spine.
My point was many people would choose the more ethical option to get the same product, if one is available. As proven by various “green” options in other product categories being popular.
I’m not sure what point are you trying to make now. It’s seems like some no true Scotsman.
“I would stop sexually assaulting people if there was a more ethical option but sadly there isn’t, so I have to go on =(((”
Certainly an… unconventional example to apply it on, but you got the gist of the idea, yes.
A less edgy example could be “I would buy drinks in a returnable glass bottle, but sadly everything is sold in disposable plastic bottles where I live, so I don’t have that option”. If you prefer such sexual examples, you do you.
Nah, I like my analogy better, since it highlights the direct injustice done to the individual.
The point is, you do have the choice to simply stop, you just don’t give a shit about animals, just like someone who values their sexual pleasure over the bodily autonomy of their victims doesn’t give a shit about them either.
Cool! Anyway, your point is lab grown meat won’t be popular, my point is it will be. Now that your analogy helped you understand, I guess you agree with me now, since you are changing the topic to different points like “you do have the choice to simply stop”, which were never disputed.
You have a lot of anger in you isn’t it? :(
There is an issue with the idea of pre industrial production. In ecoremediation we need to rewild large tracts of land to restore biodiversity. Most of this land is now used for farming and while a good portion of that land for half the crops in rotation goes to animal feed, it wouldn’t be enough to simultaneously feed the population and rewild enough land if we stick to pre industrial methods. What we need is a clean, sustainable industry of agriculture. We are already on the fragile precipe of this new form. In the Netherlands we can find automated greenhouse operations that are increasingly becoming ecologically sane in their use of pesticides, fertilizers etc. They achieve an output almost double of traditional farming on a quarter of the space on method alone. In both the netherlands and singapore vertical farm projects are started to integrate city planning and farming, further reducing the need for space. In northern europe kelp farms are started to farm kelp and seaweed. There are probably many more examples but they are all post industrial practices which rely heavily on the scalability of industry. It really is the only way forward if we truly want to restore the plenty provided by a balance in nature. Restore the biodiversity, rewild the world, use less space.
I also think that there is some much potential in the dishes we eat. Western Cousine is mostly structured around a protein and side dishes but there is so much more out there. We could have a much healthier, more diverse and interesting diet that is basically better in every regard and doesn’t require highly processed plant proteins to work. But this requires a certain amount of dedication and resources on the cooking side of things. We should start taking proper food for the population more serious as a national health concern and provide a easy way to get cheap and healthy food for everyone. This is also vital because of how the society changed, more single households and less of the traditional family. In my naive mind I never understood why food is not something like health care, water services, sewage or what ever. Everyone needs it to survive. This would be better for health (care systems), the planet and local food independence. Instead we let huge food companies sell us more sawdust per candy bar every year and exploit workers in the south.
The moment I can swap to lab based meat, I will. I care about the suffering caused by my diet, but I don’t have the mental capacity to change it right now. I have no idea what proportion of the meat eating population is like me, but it might be more than you expect.
You can go ahead and call me a terrible person, I don’t care, I’ve given up self hatred for lent. Just trying to do the best I can.
If you’re in the right space for some advice on going veggie, I found it surprisingly easy. Just think about what meals you eat that don’t have meat in them or where they are optional. Spaghetti? Extra peppers and mushrooms instead of ground beef. Tacos? Beans instead of pork. Burgers? Black bean and corn burgers are legit better than the impossible burgers, no lie (they’re in the frozen section). Literally just think of like three things you like that have no meat in them (yes, donuts and pizza count) and just try making those for a week. Add on more stuff as you think of it. I went from pork chops for dinner every day to fully vegetarian in a couple weeks. I couldn’t believe it.
I might give it a go sometime and see if I can slowly try to ramp it up. I don’t cook a ton and when I do it basically has to be one of the things that’s familiar to me to make because if I try to plan to make something new it’ll never end up happening