Progress isn’t possible because people who want progress refuse to unite under a concerted effort to make it happen. Biden was able to enact a lot of progressive policies. Hes not perfect, no one is, but you can see the progressive wing of the party have a seat at the table in the Biden government.
Despite all that there are some progressives who want to sabotage everything they worked for.
And who the fuck cares what the neolibs want. They are another obstacle that need to be done away with.
Progress isn’t possible because people who want progress refuse to unite under a concerted effort to make it happen.
I agree with most of what you say about Biden (he’s been more progressive than his Democratic predecessors, though that’s a pretty low bar), but this statement just isn’t true. Progressives showed up in 2020 to elect Biden, even though the DNC screwed over Bernie in the primaries. Despite what people believe, the youth vote was nearly as high for Hillary as it was for Obama, and more moderates went to Trump than Clinton. Progressives of course showed up Obama, since he ran a progressive campaign, but he governed in the center (his foreign and security policy was just right-wing).
The problem isn’t that the people who want progress don’t unite under a single banner. The progressives are always forced to unite under the Democrats’ centrist banner, and then those same centrist block the progress. Take Biden’s infrastructure plan; Manchin and Sinema made sure that all of the most progressive elements were stripped out of that plan. Progressives (like members of the squad) refused to vote for it without those provisions, but they were browbeaten by the centrist Dems who promised that those provisions would be passed soon in separate legislation. The progressives relented and that separate legislation was quickly abandoned.
The progressives always unite with the centrists, they rarely get anything to show for it, and they are constantly blamed for the centrists’ loses. If this is the election where the progressives finally stop showing up for the centrists (and don’t get me wrong, Trump is openly planning a fascist coup, so I pray to God it isn’t), the blame should be on the centrists for 3 nearly decades of broken promises to progressives, not progressives who, “refuse to unite.”
My perspective is, and i might just be reiterating what you have said, they unite under democrats then expect them to be progressives. It’s just not going to happen. Yes the democrats will appease them and that is awesome progress but it won’t be enough, for sure. There needs to be a concerted effort to make a change that progressives can build on. To me that is ranked choice voting or just plain getting rid of FPTP how ever you do it. The answer isn’t to abandon the progress we’ve made, though, it’s to expand on it.
Then I guess I don’t understand what your point is. Young people need to go out and vote for the Democrats instead in order to make any progress, but they can’t expect to Democrats to actually be progressive, but the Democrats will appease them (even though it really doesn’t seem that way)…I’m really not following. Is your point that progressives need to unite behind the Democrats and keep pushing them if they’re ever going to make progress? Because my point is that progressives have been uniting behind the Democrats in every major election and the Democrats actively block real progress.
Well, I’m old enough to remember when Joe Manchin killed the Build Back Better Act, when Barack Obama decided to bailout the banks and not mortgage holders, when Bill Clinton gutted welfare…the party went center-left (debatably center-right on some issues) back in the 90s because they decided that would be a better path to victory. If that’s their strategy, fine, but then they aren’t entitled to progressive votes.
And again, to his credit, I think Biden has tried harder than all of his predecessors to earn progressive votes: rescheduling marijuana, attempting go cancel student debt, proposing the BBB. He’s certainly realized that he can’t take progressive turnout for granted, much more than his party has. But Gaza is an albatross around his neck, and it’s not the college protesters he needs to be worried about, it’s the 300,000 Palestinian-Americans that are about to hand Michigan to Trump.
Well people could unite behind an actually progressive party. And that would give them the momentum to surpass the Dems and kick them out of the two party system. You are again gaslighting yourself to go back to your abusive spouse, saying it is better to have some partner, even if the beats and betrays you and has repeatedly shown to not get better except for some small tokens he tosses towards you.
The Dems are deeply entrenched in being a far right neoliberal party. They could have given Bernie a chance, they could have worked to build up new talent after 2016 that is not the face of American corpocracy. Instead they chose the guy that is representing all of this to the maximum. Trump went on an anti establishment claim. What did the Dems but against him? Maximum establishment with CLinton and now Biden. And oh surprise it is not working well.
Again it is the DNC that want Trump over wanting to stop a genocide. It is the DNC that want Trump over providing universal healthcare. It is the DNC that want Trump over fully reforming student loans. It is the DNC that want Trump over not building the Trump wall, over not putting small children in internment camps at the border, from where thousands disappear into child trafficking and over not closing fucking Guantanamo Bay, like Obama promised in 2007-2015.
If you want a progressive party your best bet is morphing the DNC into one. Look at the RNC right now, they changed the party starting from a grass roots movement. The change is shite but that’s how they did it. They also had lots and lots of funding from outside sources (see: murdoch)
End the day, you want a progressive party you have to change the face of the democratic party. How do you do that, you take over government on a local and state level and then you pursue the executive branch. Don’t believe me ask the 1000000 3rd party’s that have come and gone being jam fisted in place to serve as a spoiler then forgotten about.
Could do so much more if we changed the way we voted. Fptp has to go.
No… You and I and many of these protesters and yes, a lot of people could unite under an actual progressive. That doesn’t mean they could actually unite enough people to win a modern presidential race and even if they did it doesn’t mean they’d be able to get what we want done. Politics is strategic and is ALWAYS going to be about finding the common ground that is the better option, not the perfect option, and that option is never, ever going to be a black and white “not evil” option.
Every chance you get vote for our left wing populist candidates and other progressives, by all means. And protest and cause a fuss to move the window as much as you’re able. But when it comes to final votes, be strategic or be irrelevant and impotent.
I have never seen “strategic voting” to work. No in FPTP systems, not in relative systems with multiple parties.
It is a divide and conquer tactic. At the end of the day there is no representation of which votes were “strategic” and which votes were in support of policy. So the party/candidate will always assume this to be his full mandate to do what he wants. All you do is invalidating your voice as something to be glossed over.
Also notice how the fascists don’t vote strategically? They keep voting fascist and they keep pushing fascist and with that they move everything in the political window closer towards them. In my country in one state everybody voted the “conservative” far right populist party to avoid the fascist party to come out strongest. What is the result? 5 years of far right politics that strengthened the fascist parties positions and they are set to win that state “by a landslide” next time or alternatively the only coalition option to be fascists+“conservatives”.
Progress isn’t possible because people who want progress refuse to unite under a concerted effort to make it happen. Biden was able to enact a lot of progressive policies. Hes not perfect, no one is, but you can see the progressive wing of the party have a seat at the table in the Biden government.
Despite all that there are some progressives who want to sabotage everything they worked for.
And who the fuck cares what the neolibs want. They are another obstacle that need to be done away with.
I agree with most of what you say about Biden (he’s been more progressive than his Democratic predecessors, though that’s a pretty low bar), but this statement just isn’t true. Progressives showed up in 2020 to elect Biden, even though the DNC screwed over Bernie in the primaries. Despite what people believe, the youth vote was nearly as high for Hillary as it was for Obama, and more moderates went to Trump than Clinton. Progressives of course showed up Obama, since he ran a progressive campaign, but he governed in the center (his foreign and security policy was just right-wing).
The problem isn’t that the people who want progress don’t unite under a single banner. The progressives are always forced to unite under the Democrats’ centrist banner, and then those same centrist block the progress. Take Biden’s infrastructure plan; Manchin and Sinema made sure that all of the most progressive elements were stripped out of that plan. Progressives (like members of the squad) refused to vote for it without those provisions, but they were browbeaten by the centrist Dems who promised that those provisions would be passed soon in separate legislation. The progressives relented and that separate legislation was quickly abandoned.
The progressives always unite with the centrists, they rarely get anything to show for it, and they are constantly blamed for the centrists’ loses. If this is the election where the progressives finally stop showing up for the centrists (and don’t get me wrong, Trump is openly planning a fascist coup, so I pray to God it isn’t), the blame should be on the centrists for 3 nearly decades of broken promises to progressives, not progressives who, “refuse to unite.”
My perspective is, and i might just be reiterating what you have said, they unite under democrats then expect them to be progressives. It’s just not going to happen. Yes the democrats will appease them and that is awesome progress but it won’t be enough, for sure. There needs to be a concerted effort to make a change that progressives can build on. To me that is ranked choice voting or just plain getting rid of FPTP how ever you do it. The answer isn’t to abandon the progress we’ve made, though, it’s to expand on it.
Then I guess I don’t understand what your point is. Young people need to go out and vote for the Democrats instead in order to make any progress, but they can’t expect to Democrats to actually be progressive, but the Democrats will appease them (even though it really doesn’t seem that way)…I’m really not following. Is your point that progressives need to unite behind the Democrats and keep pushing them if they’re ever going to make progress? Because my point is that progressives have been uniting behind the Democrats in every major election and the Democrats actively block real progress.
Because you’re working from a fabrication
Well, I’m old enough to remember when Joe Manchin killed the Build Back Better Act, when Barack Obama decided to bailout the banks and not mortgage holders, when Bill Clinton gutted welfare…the party went center-left (debatably center-right on some issues) back in the 90s because they decided that would be a better path to victory. If that’s their strategy, fine, but then they aren’t entitled to progressive votes.
And again, to his credit, I think Biden has tried harder than all of his predecessors to earn progressive votes: rescheduling marijuana, attempting go cancel student debt, proposing the BBB. He’s certainly realized that he can’t take progressive turnout for granted, much more than his party has. But Gaza is an albatross around his neck, and it’s not the college protesters he needs to be worried about, it’s the 300,000 Palestinian-Americans that are about to hand Michigan to Trump.
Well people could unite behind an actually progressive party. And that would give them the momentum to surpass the Dems and kick them out of the two party system. You are again gaslighting yourself to go back to your abusive spouse, saying it is better to have some partner, even if the beats and betrays you and has repeatedly shown to not get better except for some small tokens he tosses towards you.
The Dems are deeply entrenched in being a far right neoliberal party. They could have given Bernie a chance, they could have worked to build up new talent after 2016 that is not the face of American corpocracy. Instead they chose the guy that is representing all of this to the maximum. Trump went on an anti establishment claim. What did the Dems but against him? Maximum establishment with CLinton and now Biden. And oh surprise it is not working well.
Again it is the DNC that want Trump over wanting to stop a genocide. It is the DNC that want Trump over providing universal healthcare. It is the DNC that want Trump over fully reforming student loans. It is the DNC that want Trump over not building the Trump wall, over not putting small children in internment camps at the border, from where thousands disappear into child trafficking and over not closing fucking Guantanamo Bay, like Obama promised in 2007-2015.
If you want a progressive party your best bet is morphing the DNC into one. Look at the RNC right now, they changed the party starting from a grass roots movement. The change is shite but that’s how they did it. They also had lots and lots of funding from outside sources (see: murdoch)
End the day, you want a progressive party you have to change the face of the democratic party. How do you do that, you take over government on a local and state level and then you pursue the executive branch. Don’t believe me ask the 1000000 3rd party’s that have come and gone being jam fisted in place to serve as a spoiler then forgotten about.
Could do so much more if we changed the way we voted. Fptp has to go.
No… You and I and many of these protesters and yes, a lot of people could unite under an actual progressive. That doesn’t mean they could actually unite enough people to win a modern presidential race and even if they did it doesn’t mean they’d be able to get what we want done. Politics is strategic and is ALWAYS going to be about finding the common ground that is the better option, not the perfect option, and that option is never, ever going to be a black and white “not evil” option.
Every chance you get vote for our left wing populist candidates and other progressives, by all means. And protest and cause a fuss to move the window as much as you’re able. But when it comes to final votes, be strategic or be irrelevant and impotent.
I have never seen “strategic voting” to work. No in FPTP systems, not in relative systems with multiple parties.
It is a divide and conquer tactic. At the end of the day there is no representation of which votes were “strategic” and which votes were in support of policy. So the party/candidate will always assume this to be his full mandate to do what he wants. All you do is invalidating your voice as something to be glossed over.
Also notice how the fascists don’t vote strategically? They keep voting fascist and they keep pushing fascist and with that they move everything in the political window closer towards them. In my country in one state everybody voted the “conservative” far right populist party to avoid the fascist party to come out strongest. What is the result? 5 years of far right politics that strengthened the fascist parties positions and they are set to win that state “by a landslide” next time or alternatively the only coalition option to be fascists+“conservatives”.