Israel’s leadership is pushing the allegations that Hamas fighters raped Israeli women during the October 7 attacks for its own political objectives while the government’s ongoing refusal to allow the United Nations to conduct a full investigation into the matter threatens to hinder any evidence, advocates have warned.

  • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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    5 months ago

    This is the UN report which found strong evidence that widespread rape occurred during the October 7th attack, as well as debunking one or two particular claims that Israel was putting forth which got published in the news.

    This is a press release from the UN about it.

    For some reason, the couple of lies Israel told about sexual violence became the entire story, overshadowing the much larger truth about sexual violence by Hamas fighters. Most of the infamous NYT story was true.

    Just because Israel is actively engaging in a genocide and are committing atrocities 10 times worse than whatever’s coming back to them doesn’t automatically mean that claims of atrocity by Hamas are automatically false.

    • girlfreddy@lemmy.ca
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      5 months ago

      The same as one rotten apple spoils the whole barrel, one lie taints the whole Israeli claim of rape.

      Lesson to be learned here is don’t fucking lie to embellish a story to get the world on your side.

    • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
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      5 months ago

      The UN report found there is no evidence aside from unverifiable “witness testimonies.” She did confirm that israel had no forensic, video or photo evidence. It all hangs on israeli witnesses which have previously lied. When 10 israeli “witnesses” lie to manufacture rape propaganda there is no reason to believe the 11th.

      There is no reason that Pramilla Patten should have classified those israeli provited witnesses are ‘credible’.

      The NYT article is completely debunked there is nothing left standing from it. You are straight up spreading propaganda by claiming it holds weight. The reason israel invited Patten to begin with was because the NYT article fell apart.

      The claim about NYT is irrelevant too as israel claiming in its interview with BBC that it had video evidence and that there were survivors of rape. Both which are not confirmed fake.

      • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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        5 months ago

        That is the exact opposite of what the UN report did. Did you actually read it, or if not where did you get all this information you’re telling me?

        The executive summary is only a few pages and breaks down a high level of what they found pretty well, and then you can skip to particular sections to see more detail. Pages 4 and 5 have a pretty good high-level overview of which allegations in which locations they believe they gathered reasonable grounds to believe, which allegations they believed they debunked, and which ones they weren’t able to verify or debunk one way or another. Warning, it’s slightly graphic.

        In particular, they pretty immediately debunked some of the Israeli governments’ accounts which got repeated early on in the media, actually specifically by comparing them against evidence and by doing their own interviews where they were able.

        • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
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          5 months ago

          If this was true the UN would be saying Hamas raped people. But alas, the UN does not say that.

          Instead the UN calls for an investigation like the post says. Wonder why that is…

          • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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            5 months ago

            Aha! We have arrived at the point of Never Play Defense. Someone simply observing the flow of the conversation, who doesn’t take a look at the report and compare it against what you’re saying it says, could be mistaken for thinking this is a vigorous debate between roughly equally justified points of view, or differing interpretations which are both roughly grounded in reality, or something else which isn’t you talking purely out of your ass and me giving factual citations for why you’re wrong. Kudos! Not sure what else you could do, but you’re playing it well.

            I’ll do one more round, sure. It’s not a fun game for me to play indefinitely, but:

            If this was true the UN would be saying Hamas raped people. But alas, the UN does not say that.

            I(12), page 4: “Based on the information gathered by the mission team from multiple and independent sources, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.”

            I(13), page 4: “At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped.”

            If you’re going to imply that civilians unrelated to Hamas might have done it, and it wasn’t part of Hamas’s attack – as the OP article, hilariously, does – then sure, you can, if you want.

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
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              5 months ago

              Strange the UN does not claim Hamas raped anyone care to explain why that is?

              Do mention what information is gathered. It is stated in the report.

              • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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                5 months ago

                I think I’m comfortable with the reasons I’ve already laid out so far with citations for why what’s in the OP article and what you’re saying about it is crap.

                I’m gonna take a page from “Never Play Defense.” What do you think about this?

                This week, Israel released an appalling video featuring five female Israeli soldiers taken captive at Nahal Oz military base on October 7. Fearful and bloody, the women beg for their lives while Hamas fighters mill around and alternately threaten to kill them and compliment their appearance. The captors call the women “sabaya,” which Israel translated as “women who can get pregnant.” Almost immediately, others disputed the translation and said sabaya referred merely to “female captives” and included no reference to their fertility. “The Arabic word sabaya doesn’t have sexual connotations,” the Al Jazeera journalist Laila Al-Arian wrote in a post on X, taking exception to a Washington Post article that said that it did. She said the Israeli translation was “playing on racist and orientalist tropes about Arabs and Muslims.”

                These are real women and victims of ongoing war crimes, so it does seem excessively lurid to suggest, without direct evidence, that they have been raped in captivity for the past several months. (“Eight months,” the Israelis noted, allowing readers to do the gestational math. “Think of what that means for these young women.”) But to assert that sabaya is devoid of sexual connotation reflects ignorance, at best. The word is well attested in classical sources and refers to female captives; the choice of a classical term over a modern one implies a fondness for classical modes of war, which codified sexual violence at scale. Just as concubine and comfort woman carry the befoulments of their modern use, sabaya is straightfowardly associated with what we moderns call rape.

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
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                  5 months ago

                  I think the official IDF translator lied about translations and you are reposting their propagandanda.

                  This was quite a scandal a little while back. Even Reuters censored the subtitles on the video because they said it was wrong. Of course anyone can use a translator these days and find out that the subtitles are propaganda.

                  Consider doing fact checking before posting.

                  • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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                    5 months ago

                    Since you abandoned this line of conversation, I posted the article (in a non paywalled version) if you’re interested in resurrecting it.

                    I am somewhat anticipating that me posting it will be interpreted as Zionism, so you may be in good company if you want to head over to the comments and start yelling at me that I am a bad person for being opposed to this particular type of rape, because of who the victims are.

                  • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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                    5 months ago

                    (2/2 - this is the rest of the article I pasted as the “1/2” section of the comment)

                    But in the premodern context, before the rights revolution that consecrated every person with individual, unalienable worth, sex slavery was unremarkable, and the principal concern was not whether to do it but what to do with the children. The Prophet Muhammad freed a slave after she bore him a child. The Jewish paterfamilias Abraham released his slave Hagar into the desert 14 years after she bore him Ishmael. But these are cases from antiquity, and modern folk see things differently. Frederick Douglass, in the opening of his autobiography, emphasized the inhumanity of American slave owners by noting the abhorrent results of those relationships: fathers hating, owning, abusing, and selling their own kin.

                    Sabaya is a term in part born of the need to distinguish captives potentially subject to these procreative regulations from those who would be less complicated to own. To translate it as “women who can get pregnant” is regrettably misleading. It makes explicit what the word connotes, namely that these captives fall under a legal category with possibilities distinct from those of their male counterparts. As Al-Tamimi observes, Hamas could just as easily have used a standard Arabic word for female war captives, asirat. This neutral word is used on Arabic Wikipedia, say, for Jessica Lynch, the American prisoner of war from the 2003 Iraq invasion. Instead Hamas used a term with a different history.

                    One could read too much into the choice of words. No one, to my knowledge, has suggested that Hamas is following the Islamic State by reviving sex slavery as a legal category. I know of no evidence that it has done so, and if it did, I would expect many of the group’s supporters, even those comfortable with its killing of concertgoers and old people, to denounce the group. More likely, a single group of Hamas members used the word in an especially heady moment, during which they wanted to degrade and humiliate their captives as much as possible. Thankfully, the captives appear unaware of the language being used around them. The language suggests that the fighters were open to raping the women, but it could also just be reprehensible talk, after an already coarsening day of mass killing.

                    Reading too much into the language seems, at this point, to be less of a danger than reading too little into it. As soon as the Israeli translation came out, it was assailed for its inaccuracy, when it was actually just gesturing clumsily at a real, though not easily summarized, historical background. What, if anything, should the translation have said? “Female captives” does not carry the appropriate resonance; “sex-slavery candidates” would err in the other direction and imply too much. Every translation loses something. Is there a word in English that conveys that one views the battered women in one’s control as potentially sexually available? I think probably not. I would be very careful before speaking up to defend the user of such a word.

                  • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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                    5 months ago

                    (1/2)

                    Here, I’ll repost the full article, which of course does no such thing as relying on a single IDF translation as its sole and only source, and instead actually deals at length with what the word means, how it was recently resurrected, and what it does and doesn’t imply about any official sanction from Hamas leadership.

                    I am not surprised that you want to replace this kind of detailed analysis with a simple and pithy oversimplification, since any detailed analysis will expose the truth that you’re openly defending rape.

                    This week, Israel released an appalling video featuring five female Israeli soldiers taken captive at Nahal Oz military base on October 7. Fearful and bloody, the women beg for their lives while Hamas fighters mill around and alternately threaten to kill them and compliment their appearance. The captors call the women “sabaya,” which Israel translated as “women who can get pregnant.” Almost immediately, others disputed the translation and said sabaya referred merely to “female captives” and included no reference to their fertility. “The Arabic word sabaya doesn’t have sexual connotations,” the Al Jazeera journalist Laila Al-Arian wrote in a post on X, taking exception to a Washington Post article that said that it did. She said the Israeli translation was “playing on racist and orientalist tropes about Arabs and Muslims.”

                    These are real women and victims of ongoing war crimes, so it does seem excessively lurid to suggest, without direct evidence, that they have been raped in captivity for the past several months. (“Eight months,” the Israelis noted, allowing readers to do the gestational math. “Think of what that means for these young women.”) But to assert that sabaya is devoid of sexual connotation reflects ignorance, at best. The word is well attested in classical sources and refers to female captives; the choice of a classical term over a modern one implies a fondness for classical modes of war, which codified sexual violence at scale. Just as concubine and comfort woman carry the befoulments of their historic use, sabaya is straightforwardly associated with what we moderns call rape. Anyone who uses sabaya in modern Gaza or Raqqah can be assumed to have specific and disgusting reasons to want to revive it.

                    The word sabaya recently reappeared in the modern Arabic lexicon through the efforts of the Islamic State. Unsurprisingly, then, the scholars best equipped for this analysis are the ones who observed and cataloged how ISIS revived sabaya (and many other dormant classical and medieval terms). I refer here to Aymenn J. Al-Tamimi, recently of Swansea University, and to Cole Bunzel of the Hoover Institution, who have both commented on this controversy without sensationalism, except insofar as the potential of sexual enslavement is inherently sensational.

                    Under classical Islamic jurisprudence on the law of war, the possible fates of enemy captives are four: They can be killed, ransomed, enslaved, or freed. Those enslaved are then subject to the rules that govern slavery in Islam—which are extensive, and are nearly as irrelevant to the daily lives of most living Muslims as the rules concerning slavery in Judaism are to the lives of most Jews. I say “nearly” because Jews have not had a state that sought to regulate slavery for many centuries, but the last majority-Muslim states abolished slavery only in the second half of the 20th century, and the Islamic State enthusiastically resumed the practice in 2014.

                    In doing so, the Islamic State reaffirmed the privileges, and duties, of the slave owner. (Bunzel observes that the Islamic State cited scholars who used the term sabaya as if captured women were considered slaves by default, and the other fates were implicitly improbable.) The slave owner is responsible for the welfare of the slave, including her food and shelter. He is allowed to have sex with female slaves, but certain rules apply. He may not sell her off until he can confirm that she isn’t pregnant, and he has obligations to her and to their children, if any are born from their union. I cannot stress enough that such relationships—that is, having sex with someone you own—constitute rape in all modern interpretations of the word, and they are frowned upon whether they occur in the Levant, the Hejaz, or Monticello.

        • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
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          5 months ago

          There’s a thing called a “reputation”. Lying about rape makes future rape claims without evidence less credible.

          • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Sure sure. But my question was-just in case you missed it: do you submit the blog posts you spam here to the same level of scrutiny or is your charitability only extended to only one side? That’s all we need to see that this is all a big larp for you

            • dubyakay@lemmy.ca
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              5 months ago

              The easiest way to get rid of Linkerbaan and Hamas is to stop the genocide.

              • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                What people like @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world (and most of these Lemmy LARPers) don’t understand is that I am the most on the side of Palestinians. However, I’m a solutions oriented person. I want the suffering of Palestinians to stop. Now. I don’t care to larp on social media for Karma points so I don’t spam news threads non-stop with junk blog opinion pieces. Their only goal is to dilute the conversation.

                We all are aware the genocide is happening.

                I want a ceasefire and I want to bring both sides to the table to negotiations because the Palestinian people are the ones caught in this awful situation between a proxy war for Iran and the zealotry of right wing Israeli politicians.

                  • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    Buddy, I just conceded it’s an apartheid state two comments away in the same thread. Now what will you say about me in order to obfuscate and muddy the conversation?

              • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Sure, Israel/Palestine could be classified as an apartheid state. There you go. Back to the original question (3rd time): Will you extend the same charitability to articles critical of Hamas? Or does the larp not work that way? Was just curious

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
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                  5 months ago

                  You were just going around saying Palestinians don’t have to drive on separate roads interesting how fast you change your mind.

                  Not sure where I blindly quote everything Hamas says as the truth like the IDF rape accusation defenders do.

                  • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    No pal, I was very precise in my language: I said within Israel there are millions of Muslims that coexist with Jews. That was in direct response to the garbage you were posting in that specific thread because you are unable to engage with more than one topic at a time --perhaps it’s too difficult for you. I understand. All this larping on social media can be tiring after a while.

                    Kony 2012, amirite?

                  • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    Because you constantly post opinion blog pieces on every community and they seem to not hold a candle to the slightest scrutiny, but when someone brings receipts (like UN reports) suddenly you are Nancy Drew. It’s pretty obvious that you have double standards when it comes to media literacy, no?

                    Kony 2012