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Beginners will never really be in a position where they’ll be using vanilla gnome, so that argument is kinda moot. And even if they did, those features are literally one extension away…
will quickly miss features like a minimize button and certainly tray icons.
Tray icons don’t exist in gnome’s ecosystem, it only becomes problematic once you get third party applications.
The real problems are the minimize/maximize, desktop icons, and panel on top when coming from windows. Although these days with the ever increasing phone use people might just be more at ease with gnome’s workflow anyways.
Okay but the comparison was about GNOME vs KDE, not “GNOME modified with 5 extensions and tweaks that may or may not break with the next major update”.
Also, most users will want to install third party applications. Your average gamer will likely install Discord and Steam, both of them use a tray icon. And no, most gamers aren’t very technical when it comes to their OS.
As if extensions on kde wouldn’t break. How many outdated extensions are there on kde right now? Last time I checked it wasn’t only one or two.
Just because everything is shipped with kde doesn’t mean that gnome is worse because you have to install one more app. Yes it should be included but that’s not my decision to make.
My point being that KDE doesn’t need these extensions for what one might (as a beginner coming from Windows) consider essential functionality. I don’t even use any non-preinstalled/third-party KDE extensions but I am using an extension for tray icons whenever I use GNOME, because it’s just a fact of life for me that I use applications that make use of a tray icon where I don’t want to lose the functionality. It’s not about “GNOME extensions break while KDE extensions don’t”, it’s just more likely that a beginner would want to use extensions with GNOME and is probably less likely to want/need them with KDE. Context matters here :)
I also never said that GNOME is worse, just that KDE is probably better for beginners because the default out-of-the-box configuration is more feature complete when you expect certain features Windows has - which, like it or not, is where most beginners are coming from.
I understand your frustration, yet I don’t think one is better than the other. I’d use KDE if it wasn’t for paperwm
Doesn’t GNOME work towards the android style where you have the notification that apps/processes are running in background? It’s not yet perfect but they work on it.
I haven’t used tray icons extensively on windows. I installed them on GNOME when I moved to gnome but they got lost somewhere along my distro hopping path.
Are you talking about persistent “notifications” that stay in the notification list and can show for example media controls? I think for media players using certain (cross-desktop) APIs it can do that automatically, but other apps would need to have that feature added specifically as far as I’m aware.
I don’t dislike GNOME and in isolation, it’s probably more forward-thinking and sometimes even makes more sense than KDE. But the reality is that most applications don’t specifically cater to GNOME, including the ones I’ve listed. Even Valve, which invests a lot into supporting Linux, doesn’t specifically support GNOME with Steam. If you close all Steam windows, Steam is apparently gone (but it’s obviously still running). I’m not even sure if it still shows up in the “dock” as running that way?
I think GNOME’s philosophy of not adding every feature anybody could want to have is good. They are clearly focused on their vision and leave the rest to extensions via an API that breaks compatibility rather often, but is otherwise very extensive.
But my point still stands: for a beginner coming from Windows - which is what I assume where most Linux beginners come from - KDE feels more at home, matching pretty much everything Windows Explorer (or whatever you want to call that desktop environment) does: there is a task bar that by default pretty much behaves like the Windows taskbar, the tray icons area works in much the same way, you can minimize windows, the start menu offers search and a list of applications etc. What you already know from Windows will get you quite far in KDE. It then adds a ton of configurable functionality on top and that’s where it gets more complicated, but most users (especially beginners) won’t even want to fiddle around with this stuff.
If we’re talking about a beginner as being someone who is new to computing in general: well, take your pick.
Okay but the comparison was about GNOME vs KDE, not "GNOME modified with 5 extensions and tweaks
Yeah each distribution has their own patch set. If you really want to compare you need to start with the most popular, ubuntu and fedora.
Also, most users will want to install third party applications. Your average gamer will likely install Discord and Steam, both of them use a tray icon.
The two examples you gave are definitely not most users. I’d be surprised if it were even 20%. And the tray icon isn’t necessary for either of them to work correctly. Most people use the computer to open the browser.
Fedora is pretty much vanilla GNOME. And yes, pretty much all users install third party apps. Not everybody installs Steam of course, but let it be Teams or Zoom for meetings for example. I don’t know anyone just using stock apps on their computer (or phone for that matter).
They have minimize and maximize buttons ootb iirc. And probably a bunch of other stuff I can’t cite off the top of my head. Arch is the one that has vanilla gnome.
And yes, pretty much all users install third party apps.
I think you have a biased view of an average user. Anyways we’re getting off topic. The original argument being that tray icons are not relevant for most users. You have yet to cite a good example where the tray icon is necessary for the app to properly function.
No, Fedora Workstation 40 does not have minimize and maximize buttons by default/ootb.
Or course my view is somewhat biased, but so is yours. I just know people who are absolutely clueless when it comes to computers and yet they have to for example use Zoom for the odd meeting or Teams.
Most apps using a tray icon don’t necessarily require interacting with it for the app to function (and I never stated that was the case), but beginners coming from Windows (which will be where most users are coming from, if at all - at least that’s my “biased view”) will absolutely be used to tray icons being there and might have used them to access app functionality or at least just to see that the app is still running if it has no windows open.
For more detail check my comments in reply to GravitySpoiled, not gonna repeat everything.
Certainly Plasma if you’re coming from Windows, unless we’re considering pre-customized GNOME variants like for example Ubuntu uses.
Sure, KDE can be more complex in terms of configuration and customizability, but the default configuration is already good for most users.
Beginners using vanilla GNOME will quickly miss features like a minimize button and certainly tray icons.
… and feel endless pain from whatever they did to the scrollbars. Seriously, wtf.
Beginners will never really be in a position where they’ll be using vanilla gnome, so that argument is kinda moot. And even if they did, those features are literally one extension away…
Tray icons don’t exist in gnome’s ecosystem, it only becomes problematic once you get third party applications. The real problems are the minimize/maximize, desktop icons, and panel on top when coming from windows. Although these days with the ever increasing phone use people might just be more at ease with gnome’s workflow anyways.
Okay but the comparison was about GNOME vs KDE, not “GNOME modified with 5 extensions and tweaks that may or may not break with the next major update”.
Also, most users will want to install third party applications. Your average gamer will likely install Discord and Steam, both of them use a tray icon. And no, most gamers aren’t very technical when it comes to their OS.
As if extensions on kde wouldn’t break. How many outdated extensions are there on kde right now? Last time I checked it wasn’t only one or two.
Just because everything is shipped with kde doesn’t mean that gnome is worse because you have to install one more app. Yes it should be included but that’s not my decision to make.
My point being that KDE doesn’t need these extensions for what one might (as a beginner coming from Windows) consider essential functionality. I don’t even use any non-preinstalled/third-party KDE extensions but I am using an extension for tray icons whenever I use GNOME, because it’s just a fact of life for me that I use applications that make use of a tray icon where I don’t want to lose the functionality. It’s not about “GNOME extensions break while KDE extensions don’t”, it’s just more likely that a beginner would want to use extensions with GNOME and is probably less likely to want/need them with KDE. Context matters here :)
I also never said that GNOME is worse, just that KDE is probably better for beginners because the default out-of-the-box configuration is more feature complete when you expect certain features Windows has - which, like it or not, is where most beginners are coming from.
I understand your frustration, yet I don’t think one is better than the other. I’d use KDE if it wasn’t for paperwm
Doesn’t GNOME work towards the android style where you have the notification that apps/processes are running in background? It’s not yet perfect but they work on it. I haven’t used tray icons extensively on windows. I installed them on GNOME when I moved to gnome but they got lost somewhere along my distro hopping path.
Are you talking about persistent “notifications” that stay in the notification list and can show for example media controls? I think for media players using certain (cross-desktop) APIs it can do that automatically, but other apps would need to have that feature added specifically as far as I’m aware.
I don’t dislike GNOME and in isolation, it’s probably more forward-thinking and sometimes even makes more sense than KDE. But the reality is that most applications don’t specifically cater to GNOME, including the ones I’ve listed. Even Valve, which invests a lot into supporting Linux, doesn’t specifically support GNOME with Steam. If you close all Steam windows, Steam is apparently gone (but it’s obviously still running). I’m not even sure if it still shows up in the “dock” as running that way?
I think GNOME’s philosophy of not adding every feature anybody could want to have is good. They are clearly focused on their vision and leave the rest to extensions via an API that breaks compatibility rather often, but is otherwise very extensive.
But my point still stands: for a beginner coming from Windows - which is what I assume where most Linux beginners come from - KDE feels more at home, matching pretty much everything Windows Explorer (or whatever you want to call that desktop environment) does: there is a task bar that by default pretty much behaves like the Windows taskbar, the tray icons area works in much the same way, you can minimize windows, the start menu offers search and a list of applications etc. What you already know from Windows will get you quite far in KDE. It then adds a ton of configurable functionality on top and that’s where it gets more complicated, but most users (especially beginners) won’t even want to fiddle around with this stuff.
If we’re talking about a beginner as being someone who is new to computing in general: well, take your pick.
Yeah each distribution has their own patch set. If you really want to compare you need to start with the most popular, ubuntu and fedora.
The two examples you gave are definitely not most users. I’d be surprised if it were even 20%. And the tray icon isn’t necessary for either of them to work correctly. Most people use the computer to open the browser.
Fedora is pretty much vanilla GNOME. And yes, pretty much all users install third party apps. Not everybody installs Steam of course, but let it be Teams or Zoom for meetings for example. I don’t know anyone just using stock apps on their computer (or phone for that matter).
They have minimize and maximize buttons ootb iirc. And probably a bunch of other stuff I can’t cite off the top of my head. Arch is the one that has vanilla gnome.
I think you have a biased view of an average user. Anyways we’re getting off topic. The original argument being that tray icons are not relevant for most users. You have yet to cite a good example where the tray icon is necessary for the app to properly function.
No, Fedora Workstation 40 does not have minimize and maximize buttons by default/ootb.
Or course my view is somewhat biased, but so is yours. I just know people who are absolutely clueless when it comes to computers and yet they have to for example use Zoom for the odd meeting or Teams.
Most apps using a tray icon don’t necessarily require interacting with it for the app to function (and I never stated that was the case), but beginners coming from Windows (which will be where most users are coming from, if at all - at least that’s my “biased view”) will absolutely be used to tray icons being there and might have used them to access app functionality or at least just to see that the app is still running if it has no windows open.
For more detail check my comments in reply to GravitySpoiled, not gonna repeat everything.