And the Soviets continued exporting grain from the Soviet Union itself, not just Ukraine, during the famine. Enough to feed millions of people. This was a choice made by Stalin.
Yeah, that’s probably true, unless one wishes to subject a certain percentage of the deaths in WW2 to Stalin’s decisionmaking. That would, by my count, be unfair, even though Stalin’s shares some responsibility for splitting Poland with genocidaires, letting the Nazis sucker-punch the USSR, and then a series of questionable decisions in defense of the Soviet Union. Ultimately, Hitler is the one at primary fault for the those deaths.
You could also argue that without the rapid industrialization , payed for in Ukrainian blood, during the 1930s that stalin ordered the soviets wouldve lost the war. They at least wouldve probably had to retreat past the urals for a few years until the u.s. could ramp up and save them. Considering nazi plans for Russia, what hitler wouldve done with even those couple years would make holodomoor look like a picnic.
The soviets were barely able to hold back the nazis even after a huge boom in industrial productivity under the 5 year plans. If they had kept at there earlier pace of industrialization they wouldve been blown out of the water.
Stalin probably made a lot of strategic mistakes, but even if the soviets had a military genius leading them, if they don’t have the tanks and guns to back up those strategies they still wouldve lost.
Yeah, Stalin def could have handled defence better - but years matter in a war enormously, without Russian cannon fodder Nazis would have had the time to solidify power & the fighting in the west would have been significantly worse (or perhaps even stop with Germany victorious), Hitler was basically counting on Stalin to stop or stop being able to defend USSR at such a cost to lives, that was the actual plan.
unless one wishes to subject a certain percentage of the deaths in WW2 to Stalin’s decisionmaking
…Which would not be entirely unreasonable. But if we’re going to do that, then we would have to do the same with Hitler and German casualties, and then you could argue that Hitler caused all of the German casualties by invading Poland.
I already said that. They took Ukrainian grain and shipped it to Moscow.
The 4 million Ukrainian Slavs dead still isn’t greater than the 20 million Slavs killed by Hitler.
You said
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930–1933
The famine affected a large area of eastern Europe, not just Ukraine.
And the Soviets continued exporting grain from the Soviet Union itself, not just Ukraine, during the famine. Enough to feed millions of people. This was a choice made by Stalin.
You are right! I’m am sorry.
I still stand by my statement that Hitler killed more Slavs than Stalin.
Yeah, that’s probably true, unless one wishes to subject a certain percentage of the deaths in WW2 to Stalin’s decisionmaking. That would, by my count, be unfair, even though Stalin’s shares some responsibility for splitting Poland with genocidaires, letting the Nazis sucker-punch the USSR, and then a series of questionable decisions in defense of the Soviet Union. Ultimately, Hitler is the one at primary fault for the those deaths.
You could also argue that without the rapid industrialization , payed for in Ukrainian blood, during the 1930s that stalin ordered the soviets wouldve lost the war. They at least wouldve probably had to retreat past the urals for a few years until the u.s. could ramp up and save them. Considering nazi plans for Russia, what hitler wouldve done with even those couple years would make holodomoor look like a picnic.
The soviets were barely able to hold back the nazis even after a huge boom in industrial productivity under the 5 year plans. If they had kept at there earlier pace of industrialization they wouldve been blown out of the water.
Stalin probably made a lot of strategic mistakes, but even if the soviets had a military genius leading them, if they don’t have the tanks and guns to back up those strategies they still wouldve lost.
Yeah, Stalin def could have handled defence better - but years matter in a war enormously, without Russian cannon fodder Nazis would have had the time to solidify power & the fighting in the west would have been significantly worse (or perhaps even stop with Germany victorious), Hitler was basically counting on Stalin to stop or stop being able to defend USSR at such a cost to lives, that was the actual plan.
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…Which would not be entirely unreasonable. But if we’re going to do that, then we would have to do the same with Hitler and German casualties, and then you could argue that Hitler caused all of the German casualties by invading Poland.
Well, yes, but the meme only measures number of Slavs killed, and Germans aren’t Slavic.
If we’re counting overall deaths, it’s not even close. Hitler ‘wins’.