Please hear me out.
Lately there has been a lot of fighting regarding the infamous June Fourth Incident. Lefties make it appear as though all of it is a fabrication, while liberals dismiss all of it as CPC propaganda. Very few seem willing to engage in any meaningful discussion, as they feel like their ideology is under attack by a hopelessly brainwashed political opponent.
While there certainly are many uncertainties regarding the event, I’d say much of the disagreements are quite needless. While there definitely were hundreds of civilian deaths that night and morning, scholars tend to agree that very few (if any) died on the square itself. The square seems to have been peacefully evacuated, and most of the deaths seem to have happened in dispersed conflicts between violent protestors and law enforcers, and on Changan Jie as people tried to reënter the square. It is also worth noting that a lot of (non-student) protestors were very violent against the law enforcers, killing several and severely injuring many others.
While the events and the government’s heavy censorship on the topic are still not justified, it is very different from the story of tanks rolling into the square, mercilessly killing many thousands of peaceful student protestors. The few witness accounts that did tell such stories were very quickly picked up by western media despite often being disproven, and although many news agencies later corrected themselves, this version wad the one that caught on with the public.
A read on the Wikipedia page may clear up the biggest misconceptions. Also check out these articles by the Columbia Journalism Review and CBS News, both of which would definitely not like to render the CPC favourably.
The lefties are actually not trying to say much more than this. If you pay attention, you see thay they always say that specifically the “Tiananmen Square Massacre” is myth. Of course they also have things to say about the nature of the protestors and other context, but ultimately most of their views are quite nuanced. It is just because of their dislike for brainwashed liberals that they appear so confrontational, which in turn discourages liberals from having a listen, exacerbating the estrangement and preventing any productive discussion, ultimately causing more people to have a narrow point of view.
I suppose my main message is that one should be a bit more open minded and that a lot of disagreement just stems from misunderstanding due to unnecessaty hostility. To be fair, I have been pleasantly surprised by the general open-mindedness here on Lemmy. I salute everybody that has the courage to admit that they are wrong.
There is a time and place for pedantry, and that time and place is when extremists are not creeping about looking for things they can use to score rhetorical points.
I recently argued in favor of having nuance when discussing the American Civil War and its relation to slavery. That is because there’s a distinct lack of KKK members on lemmy. There’s no one to cherry pick arguments and try to defend something reprehensible.
That is not the case when it comes to the CCP. There are loads of tankies around. Therefore, it’s impossible to have a good faith discussion about the specifics of Tiananmen Square.
In this circumstance, it’s best to keep things short, simple, and on topic. Fuck the CCP, they are murderous dogs.
But technically - - “Fuck the CCP, they are murderous dogs.”
Sources suggest - - “Fuck the CCP, they are murderous dogs.”
Keep an open m - - “Fuck the CCP, they are murderous dogs.”
If ever a day comes when tankies abandon lemmy, we can have this discussion. For now, no.
I get what you mean, but don’t you think that makes the problem worse? They will definitely not improve when they see your unwillingness to compromise. Furthermore, when people realise that the side they’re on is factually problematic they are much more likely to turn to extremism. I believe in honesty and open-minded discussion.
It’s not about convincing them. That’s a losing battle. It’s about driving them away from the conversation so the grownups can talk.
“Rules-based order” moment lmfao. And no, that is not a compliment.
You might have spent a bit too much time on lemmygrad.
Please just read this article: https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php
Edit: This is just a CJR article. If it is bad, please do explain why.
No
CCP propaganda. You also outed yourself as a Wumao by calling it CPC.
Nice try. Not quite up to the task.
Outed himself in the title by not calling it the Tianmen Square Massacre.
Ah yes. “Wumao”. Nothing says “I know what I’m talking about” better than using decades-old slang incorrectly.
Fucking Americans.
Chinese propaganda? From the Columbia Journalism Review? An American journalist explicitly criticising the Chinese regime? I’m sorry but I’ll need more explanation than that.
Also, regarding the abbreviation, where I am from people tend to use both abbreviations and I just happened to use the official one.
Yep, this is definitely the work of a Chinese propagandist:
[…] it has allowed the bloody-minded regime responsible for the June 4 murders to divert attention from what happened. There was a massacre that morning.
The main deaths weren’t even students. They were protesting WORKERS over a kilometre away. And, in fact, the overall upheaval of 1989 was worker protests that were nationwide. There’s a reason why the authorities were so antsy and why they even, at the end, did the dangerous thing of using the PLA against the people: they viewed the events of 1989 leading up to June 4th as an existential threat.
So what though? What’s the point in saying this?
Because truth matters. I know that’s a radical thought, but it remains true. The truth matters. If you say there were students massacred in Tiananmen Square in 1989, you’re saying things that are untrue. You’re not only spreading a lie, you’re also erasing the people who actually suffered under the thumb of the tyrannical authorities. Not to mention what spreading lies does to credibility.
Consider, for example, the plight of westerners who try to come to China and teach the locals a “better way”. They mention the “slaughter of students” and get blank incomprehension. Their credibility is blown, their message falls on deaf ears, and they make life harder even for those who aren’t ignoramuses because now “westerners just make shit up”.
And if you can’t see a difference between nationwide protests viewed as a literal existential threat to a tyrannical state and a bunch of cute kids cosplaying democracy advocates in terms of perceived threat and response, well, I really don’t know how to explain this to you. So let’s just stick with “truth matters”. Though I’m going to predict even that falls on deaf ears because you’d much rather believe the bullshit that doesn’t challenge what you think you know than change your worldview.
Truth is, after all, not the American Way.
You’re right.
Here’s the problem:
There’s no point in this conversation. As Westerners, we simply do not have access to uncensored reporting of what actually happened. Since we’re operating from a position of “we can’t know”, when it comes to talking about it, we don’t care.
Every mature, moderate person is going to have this position. They won’t comment or upvote/downvote in your conversation, because they have no sound knowledge base to do so from.
What that leaves is the people that will talk to you at length about things they don’t really know anything about. Aka, idiots.
Every conversation you have on this topic with a westerner is, by definition, a conversation they are having from a position of ignorance. Thus, every person you are talking to is an idiot. All the smart ones are simply ignoring you, since there’s no point in listening to anyone, where this topic is concerned.
How hard can it be? Just have a read on the Wikipedia page. The Columbia Journalism Review i American, so is CBS. Please be at least a little open-minded, people.
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I have been beating this drum for years in various platforms (including Lemmy). The absolute inability of (chiefly) Americans to admit even the slightest possibility of error is truly astonishing, it turns out.
At least I get block fodder out of it when I see people unwilling to address anything and just do childish responses.
Add me to your block list pls
Fuck the CCP
