cross-posted from: https://exploding-heads.com/post/159008
My grandmother was born in Berlin in 1938. Her father was essentially forced into the army, because he had skills as a mechanic. He was captured by the Russians, and then tortured for the rest of his life essentially. At the end of the war nazi Gestapo went to her home and tried to force her grandfather and all of her under age brothers into the war on the eastern front against Russia. When her grandfather refused, they put a hand gun to his head and shot him in front of the entire family, and then essentially kidnapped. All the young boys and every last one of them died. The only one who survived managed to get away by hiding in an old clothing case. Once the war was pretty much over and the Russians had control of the city, my grandmother watched as her mother was gang raped by Russian soldiers. She actually had her head shaved by her mother so that the Russians would think she was a little boy so they wouldn’t rape her because they were literally raping women of all ages. If you ask me how I view Hitler and his fanatical followers. I would tell you that I despise them because I remember being a young boy and watching an old lady cry as she told me the stories of her youth and the horrors of war. So when you guys start going around calling Republicans Nazis I’m sorry if I don’t take you seriously and I’m really offended by it. This is another reason why I can’t take people seriously that call Trump and his supporters Nazis. The fact of the matter is once Hitler gained enough power, He armed his supporters to the teeth with military grade weaponry, and began a genocide in his own nation against Jews and other minorities. If Trump really was a Nazi and so he were his supporters then during that four year time span he would’ve found ways and means to arm his supporters and begin slaughtering liberals like it was going out of style.
Do I think that every single member of the GOP is a literal nazi? Of course not.
Do I think that if every single literal nazi was removed from the face of the Earth there would still be a functional GOP party? Highly doubt it.
The overlap is real. Whether you’re talking about nazis, or just old fashioned racists, They are, from an outside perspective, very much so one in the same. I’m sorry that your grandmother had to go through that. It’s awful, and it shouldn’t happen to anyone at all, but if you can’t see the parallels between what Hitler did to the Jews like your grandmother and what someone like DeSantis is doing to transgender people, then you simply aren’t capable of seeing transgender people as actual human beings. Which is exactly what the nazis thought about the Jews.
When the events of Charlottesville happened in 2017 and trump couldn’t bring himself to denounce literal Nazis and had to claim that there were “very fine people on both sides” that should have been all any reasonable person needed to see to be convinced. There is no such thing as a very fine nazi. There is no such thing as a very fine person who thinks that all members of minority races or groups should be eliminated. How hard is it to look at a group of people that only exist to hate and reject them? If you are a principled person who doesn’t share that hate, it’s actually pretty easy. Trump cannot openly reject Nazis and racists because if he did the overwhelming majority of his supporters would immediately drop their support. Even if he himself isn’t a Nazi, the fact that he hasn’t spoke out about them says all that I need to hear.
but if you can’t see the parallels between what Hitler did to the Jews like your grandmother and what someone like DeSantis is doing to transgender people
What, specifically, are those parallels?
I asked for evidence, not a bunch of propaganda that jerks off your political view
God bless my man.
I will say some prayers about this situation… Of course, it is far in the past… But it is upsetting and I pray for the repose of their souls, and I pray for peace in the world.
Ty man
Sorry to hear that man.
My grandpa fought in WW2. He didn’t like to talk about it aside from hating spam (or any canned ham really) for the rest of his life… So never heard any firsthand horror stories like you did but I’m no Hitler fan either and one of my best buds is Jewish.
Really wishing downvotes were still here so I could give this other jerk one for trying to use your post as a springboard for talking shit.
Oh dang, not downvotes! I’m so lucky I was spared that embarrassment.
Good point, I guess they are kinda worthless but imi you’re still kinda acting like a bit like a dbag here mate.
One thing I don’t get. If it was me and a site / user had nothing of value to me, I would just block the user / switch sites and move on. I see a few guys act like this here and there and just don’t get it. If you hate us “nazis” / “bigots” so much, why chill here then? Just seems a bit counter intuitive to me.
Well, for starters most of the time I see a right wing internet site, they are the ones doing the blocking. All you have to do is push back just a little bit on their views and the ban hammer gets swung. Supposedly the admins here claim that isn’t going to be the case, so I’m testing that out. And not by name calling and mindless attacks, but by trying to make valid points. Which I did in my other post. I’m not sure what points you specifically disagreed with, you’re more than welcome to tell me here, but as long as I have the opportunity, I would like to see if I can get someone who disagrees with the way I see the world to explain it to me why they seem to think it’s a valid point instead of just blocking me and making me go away. What’s the point of only being around people that think the same way as you do? You will never expand your viewpoint if you do that (which is a MASSIVE problem with 99% of right wing safe spaces on the internet)
Well, for starters most of the time I see a right wing internet site, they are the ones doing the blocking. All you have to do is push back just a little bit on their views and the ban hammer gets swung. Supposedly the admins here claim that isn’t going to be the case, so I’m testing that out. And not by name calling and mindless attacks, but by trying to make valid points.
You might be surprised to hear this but I actually get you in that respect. I’ve had plenty of issues on Reddit and other lemmy instances with similar things. And it might surprise you even more than I wasn’t using any slurs whatsoever or promoting for violence etc.
But I’ve had plenty of times where merely even dissenting from popular opinion on a site that I see as authoritarian left, results in immediate accusations of bigotry or similar.
For voicing opinions like:
- long term effects of affirmative-action aren’t good for minorities bc it both creates a dependency and adds to the perception that they can’t do it on their own. Even worse, the current usage didn’t have a plan for scaling back and deprecating itself, e.g. was not short term AA but the laziest most unimaginative version possible: perpetual AA (this was years before the recent SCOTUS rulings btw so “current” might not be accurate anymore).
- not having rainbows in your non-gender-related subreddit’s banner - especially outside of pride month - doesn’t mean you hate lgbt. You could just as easily have a sticky sub without adding confusion for new users or if there was a strong need for that special focus, an additional lgbt sister sub could be formed.
- Pretty much any time I would point out that people wanting to jump ship away from “Capitalism” to “Communism” didn’t really understand those terms or that the current system is about as “capitalist” as Taco Bell is “authentic Mexican” and that the problem isn’t “capitalism” but (esp government) corruption which switching systems does nothing to eliminate. And that it would be much more effective to focus on preventing and undoing the effects of corruption in the present system than enacting a major change that doesn’t even address the core issue.
I don’t see myself as a bigot. I’ve had black people I respect a hell of a lot. One of my best friends is Jewish. I’ve had multiple friends that were either L, G,or B over the years. Aside from personal drama from 1 individual, I’ve not had any issues with the others nor do I think the one individual is representative. I’ve had coworkers of just about all walks of life, never had an issue. Never known anyone in the KKK/neo-nazis/other hate groups or had even the slightest interest in seeking them out.
I did technically have a great something or other grandfather that fought for Germany but I think that was WW1 and they gtfo before WW2. Haven’t dated outside my race before but that’s never been a qualifier for me and there have been women outside my race that I was extremely interested in but unfortunately it didn’t work out (ironically one was an Indian lady and she told me that she didn’t date outside her race… go figure).
Point is I don’t really give a fuck what color skin or sexual orientation individuals are, so if someone is calling me a bigot, odds are pretty damn good it’s either a really big misunderstanding or they’re disagreeing with my political views.
I’m not sure what points you specifically disagreed with, you’re more than welcome to tell me here, but as long as I have the opportunity
I have different opinions than you sure. But in this case, it wasn’t even about that.
It was more just that it came off as really disrespectful in the context of replying directly to the post that it did and that IMO you were tossing around the term “Nazi” pretty casually when other terms would work fine. Many on the left are super duper careful about language semantics and if you’re used to participating in those forums, it strikes me that it could be a very intentional use designed to mock or goad OP.
If that is the case, then you should be able to handle criticism for behaving like a jerk.
If that it was not intentional and your goal really is having /pol discourse with people that think different, then IMO it seems a bit lazy to say things like “Nazi” and could also lead to confusion in cases where you aren’t actually talking about 1940s history, geriatric German guys with a shady past, or a particular group of racists that like shaving their heads and literally worshipping the failed ideals of 1940s German Socialist party.
I would make the argument that it’s only purpose where you used it was to create shock value or to set up the argument to more easily be dismissive of political opponents based on a very subjective and arbitrarily inserted moral high ground. So again, it’s just lazy and is actually completely counterproductive to having a conversation. It’s not much better than if I go into a trans forum, with my current s/n (which was born out of political frustration rather than hate in case you were curious) and started saying names and terms that I know they dislike, misgendering, etc while asking for civil discussion (e.g. if I wasn’t trolling, I ought to know that it will not support the objective)
I would like to see if I can get someone who disagrees with the way I see the world to explain it to me why they seem to think it’s a valid point instead of just blocking me and making me go away.
Hell, just start by saying that. If you are a liberal that is open to actually talking with conservatives without dropping “racist” / “bigot” / etc at the first sign that they don’t agree with you, I think you’ll find more people than you might think who are open to that convo. Yeah, some people will be lazy jerks and inevitability yell / mock / dismiss out of frustration. You have plenty of guys like that on your own side of the fence too. But I would be genuinely surprised if you were being civil and nobody wanted to chat with you in turn.
What’s the point of only being around people that think the same way as you do? You will never expand your viewpoint if you do that (which is a MASSIVE problem with 99% of right wing safe spaces on the internet)
No argument here. Well, I would maybe note a couple things…
First, that there seem to be a LOT more left wing safe spaces after so many places have forcibly ejected large segments of right wing users as ostensibly being racists and that your same arguments apply equally to those places.
I think most of the difference is that neither side enjoys being called names and both sides consider it namecalling as disrespectful but many of the leftist sites get way more offended by names than we tend to and seem to practice authoritarianism by also blocking us.
And second, because of the first point, there are a lot less places for right wingers. As such, it seems fair to actually get their buy-in and participate in the right places. Not accusing you personally but I’ve see other users who were very obviously leftists complain to people just trying to relax in their small corner of the web or complaining about language/ideas in meme subs that specifically allow that sort of thing (some on EH, some elsewhere). If you want serious discussion, willing participants in a forum/sub intended for discussions rather than memes, seems appropriate to me.
I’ve seen you lean on the “this is just a place for memes, bro” crutch a couple of times now. Casual racism or bigotry is still racism and bigotry, FYI. Also, I didn’t really pay close attention to everything that got posted here, I did see a bunch of memes or whatever, but this thread and the other couple that I posted in weren’t meme related in the slightest, which is why I chose to respond to them. You can’t operate under the pretense of an open discussion and then shout “It’s just memes, stop trying to have a real discussion” every time someone takes you up on it.
As far as you saying you’re not a bigot, well when you selected your username, you chose to show the world otherwise. That might be a joke to you or something that’s just funny, but going back to the first thing I said, casual bigotry is still very much so bigotry. I’ll admit, liking cheese is hardly one of the top 100 things that’s important to me, so maybe your hatred of trans people and your decision to use a slur to refer to them isn’t representative of who you are as a person, but I do find it hilarious that someone who had the entirety of all the usernames in the world available to them but chose one that literally is able hating a specific group of people and using a slur to do so has the gall to say they’re not a bigot with a straight face.
As far as my liberal use of the word Nazi, I did jump right into the middle of that conversation and that might have been a shock that I wasn’t quite intending. But I was directly responding to the part of OP’s post where he said he was offended that people associated Nazis with Republicans. As I said, I know from personal experience that there’s not a 1 to 1 correlation there, but I still can’t figure out why anyone who wasn’t a Nazi sympathizer would allow that sort of presence in their party. If you are driving somewhere and you see people on the side of the road with Swastika flags and Nazi uniforms broke down and you give them a ride to wherever it is you’re going, you helped them. You might not agree with them, you might actively dislike it. But you helped them accomplish their goal. And when literal actual Nazis are protesting with signs for GOP candidates and said candidate doesn’t actually speak out against them (https://www.news-press.com/story/news/local/2023/06/12/nazi-flags-at-disney-how-has-ron-desantis-addressed-antisemitism/70312857007/) then that’s condoning their behavior by default. If you’re standing next to a literal Nazi in the voting booth and you’re both making the same decisions, you both have the same goals, and you don’t re-evaluate literally everything you believe in, well then hopefully you can see why it’s difficult for someone who doesn’t agree with either one of you has a very hard time telling the difference.
Like I said, what happened to OP’s grandmother was awful, but I don’t see how voting for people who appear to be aligned with the same people who did it in any way shape or form honors the people who were put through those atrocities. If you think that me pointing that out makes me a jerk, so be it. That wasn’t really my intention, but then again I was responding to someone who, in another post, has already admitted that he enjoys getting downvotes and considers them to be a success. I believe I saw a similar comment of yours as well. By your own logic, if I’ve managed to piss you off then I believe I’ve won? Is that how it works? Again, not really my intention, but I really am curious how someone can get their mind as twisted as you two are and actually try to use logic to explain their way out of it. You’re all so quick to dismiss someone who disagrees as nothing more than a troll or a member of the hivemind, but when push comes to shove and you have to explain why you think the way you think about the things you say, there’s quite often very little actual argument. For a group of people that talks about the left and their feelings I just see a lot of confusion, hate, and naïvety as the main driving force for most of the talking points for the right.
but I still can’t figure out why anyone who wasn’t a Nazi sympathizer would allow that sort of presence in their party.
Same reason democrats allow communists to vote for them. You get the same vote as everyone else regardless of how utterly stupid you are, and given the nature of the two-party, first-past-the-post system, the overwhelming majority of people, even at the extremes, will end up voting for one of the two major parties, even if they barely actually align ideologically.
I agree the 2 party system is a joke and only serves to give the illusion of choice in all but the most superficial of cases. But your implication that communism is on the same level of outright evil as Nazism is so far fetched, I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make.
Also, if there truly was a large group effort to establish actual communism (and not just ramping up programs like socialized healthcare and improved infrastructure) and make it mainstream within this country, I would have no problems combatting those efforts in any way I saw fit, as I believe the large majority of people that vote democrat would. I was going to ask if you could say the same thing regarding Nazis with the GOP, but that’s not even a hypothetical question I have to ask you, as there are plenty of examples of that simply not happening.
Lot here and I’m getting tired so sorry if I skip some stuff / have more typos than usual.
I’ve seen you lean on the “this is just a place for memes, bro” crutch a couple of times now.
Point was more that if the sub is about posting memes, I’m not there to have long political discussions. A little short back and forth is one thing, but purely if I’m posting memes I’m not there for long form chats andbis more what I meant. I don’t always have time for long form which IMO is what the best discussion is but popping on to post a quick shit post while you’re dropping a deuce at work usually doesn’t take too long.
Casual racism or bigotry is still racism and bigotry, FYI.
As far as this and the crutch part from earlier, I really do just consider it joking around. You want to call me a racist for that, I don’t really care. I have had black friends that call me cracker. That’s racist too. My Jewish friend has called me goy before. Same shit.
There was a Broadway play awhile back with a song something like everybody is a little racist sometimes or something to that effect. I believe similarly to that or maybe that it is a spectrum not unlike autism. To my way of thinking, there’s a big difference between someone that gets fed up with politics and memes things up / acts like a twat in one specific place as an outlet but is otherwise a decent person and someone that is calling for mass eradication of a group of people. Maybe you see someone with high functioning autism (formerly Asperger’s) and low functioning as the same thing just because they’re both called “autism”? I dunno but for me there’s a difference.
And I think the fact that everything is confined to a specific sub is also a point worth considering. I do post on other subs but like for instance on EH’s funmemes the rules are a lot different and I don’t do that stuff outside of the designated areas for it.
Also, I didn’t really pay close attention to everything that got posted here, I did see a bunch of memes or whatever, but this thread and the other couple that I posted in weren’t meme related in the slightest, which is why I chose to respond to them.
Ok, if I came off as trying to crucify you over it, wasn’t my intent. Meant it more in terms of time management and compartmentalizing different stuff in different areas. TBF, I get that lemmy’s ui does not always make this an easy task and that I probably come across as a lot more of an asshole when I’m in a rush and firing things off more rapidly. When I have the time, I have tried to help folks out that don’t like that kind of content.
I’m not offended at all if people want to block me. Honestly, I really wish Lemmy had some kind of tagging system and the ability to filter in/out posts based on tags (at community and post levels, possibly for comments and users too tho). I think that would be a much better solution than wholesale defedding / user-blocking of entire sub or everything another user posts. Or at least a real cool and novel alternative for those that want to take advantage of it.
But at the end of the day, I came there specially to vent and relax and I’m not breaking any rules. So if someone isn’t trying to actually engage in discussion and just wants to give a hard time about it, then I either ignore them or if they are persistent then probably will block them and move on.
As far as you saying you’re not a bigot, well when you selected your username, you chose to show the world otherwise.
Honestly, when I selected it what was going thru my head was I was frustrated with trans activists (not necessarily all trans people) and thinking
- If I get blocked bc of the name, then it’s not really a free speech instance so that is a good test that’s pretty quick and easy
- If I pick a name that the more radical trans activists dislike, then probably they will be more likely to straight up block me rather than engage in discussion so I will get less interactions with people I am not fond of dealing with.
I think I’m allowed to change my name on here and now that I know the instance is truly free speech, I might even consider looking into it at some point. I haven’t ruled it out or committed to it yet but we’ll see.
As far as “showing the world”, in terms of what “world” is encompassed in the corner of the fediverse that hasn’t defedded us, I’m fine with that perception/misconception/deception if the trade off is that it encourages more radical elements to leave me be. I’m not opposed to calm discussion here and there but I don’t come here to defend my viewpoints that I’m “not allowed” to have on mainstream sites. TBH, if people on mainstream sites weren’t so easily offended like things used to be 10/15/20 years ago, I doubt I would feel the desire in the first place.
maybe your hatred of trans people
Minor distinction but I don’t actually hate trans people - only the pushy activists types. What most people would call sjw’s. Many of whom are not even trans themselves.
Hell, if you asked me what a “troon” was even 10 minutes before I registered, my dumbass probably would have confused it with a “macaroon” and started getting hungry. While trying to find something for point #2 above, I saw a post mentioning it meant trans activists or goons or something, but tbh I don’t even really know for sure how its used.
you saying you’re not a bigot
Ok, maybe bc the word is so reductive that it doesn’t account for someone being annoyed by a group of people or for where on the spectrum of bigotry one falls or what they are bigots about. I dunno.
But like I said earlier, I see a huge difference between someone that is literally a member of KKK and wants to literally kill people, someone that casual says slurs to their buddies, and someone who is neither of those things but disagrees with using political power to artificially put one group on a pedestal or is willing to tolerate but not cater to demands.
If people want to call me a bigot for the stuff I’m posting in dankmemes, I don’t really care. It will fall on deaf ears and if someone wastes my time too much, I’ll probably block them.
Outside of that, if I’m on some other instance with some other name and just expressing a different political opinion, I think it’s kind of a dick move calling someone a “bigot” over nothing but having a different point of view.
I still can’t figure out why anyone who wasn’t a Nazi sympathizer would allow that sort of presence in their party.
I dunno about the official party/ GOP. But most of the guys I personally know that vote Republican aren’t officially affiliated with the party and mostly just don’t want stuff the other side is pushing but they identify as Republican. I know a couple guys that vote entirely along the 2A lines and don’t seem to really give a damn about anything else but call themselves Republicans. Haven’t known any of them to express any race hate whatsoever. Lgbt support varies a bit tho… Especially the T part. But most of them are pretty indifferent to LGB.
You could day they are bigots I guess. I don’t think it fits. Racist definitely doesn’t. Transmisic / transphob maybe. But that kinda implies disliking the people. Most art like ne and just don’t like how the political side is getting thrown at them wihy no discussion, no input from the other side, just “do as we say” mentionality.
