I just woke up this morning to the news that six hostages had been found dead in a tunnel in Gaza, cause of death multiple gunshot wounds at close range.
I struggle to find sympathy for Palestine after reading a story like that.
Hamas deserve no sympathy - but most Palestinians are just people, like the Israelis, living under a regime that heavily peddles dehumanizing propaganda. If we had no sympathy for the Israelis because of the Palestinians intentionally killed by their hands, we’d be going down the same route that’s currently locking the two sides into a fucking pointless race towards genocide, that Israel seems likely to ‘win’.
In the same vein, the majority of Israelis have supported the occupation and genocide of Palestine, and will continue to do so.
It’s not about being ‘innocent’. That’s how these blood feuds perpetuate themselves. We have to accept that, going forward, mere tribalist support for one atrocity or another is not enough to continue pursuing this pointless blood feud. We couldn’t in-good-conscience hang every Nazi after WW2, and Nazi civilians were far more deserving of the noose than the civilian populations of Gaza or Israel.
We cannot justify the murder of Israeli or Gazan civilians under the guise that they hold hate in their hearts or support a shitty side in this shitty conflict. We must narrow those who deserve retribution to the actual criminals, not the propagandized and struggling masses.
It’s cool, I’m not your dad. I’m more speaking to the message than you, cause you’re just a name. I’m speaking to a bigoted, myopic message on a platform that I use. You can come or go.
I’m also over hearing people make excuses for mass murderers. Hamas are the government of Gaza, after all, this logic isn’t applied to other governments vs their own people.
No, I don’t think I will. I don’t think I’m the only one here who needs their views questioned. How can you possibly justify executing hostages in cold blood?
Should foreigners lose sympathy for your people as a whole, if a group whose members hailed from it do something horrible? Its not like everyday people in Palestine have much choice about what goes on there.
Ironically enough, the group that seems to be doing the most to free Palestine from the rule of Hamas is the Israeli government.
And quite frankly, I’m sceptical of the claim Palestine is suffering under a dictatorship going against the will of the people, from what I’ve seen they have a lot of support from the population.
Hamas has performed charity. But that’s not the same as being a charity - their express purpose from their founding has been the destruction of the state of Israel.
That’s in reference to Islamist predecessors of Hamas, not the org itself. I’m speaking of Hamas after its founding, which Israel has spent decades funding
Not just propping up, getting them into power in the first place. Israel manipulated the elections in Gaza to ensure that Hamas came to power so that they’d be able to frame their fight as being against extremists instead of the more reasonable who had been opposing Hamas (the name escapes me at the moment).
Fatah. Fatah agreed to a two-state solution and peaceful negotiation, and the Israeli prime minister got assassinated by far-right Zionist loons for his trouble. Ever since, every attempt by Fatah at good-faith negotiation has ended up as demands from Israel for a demonstration of fealty, followed by Israel not following through on its obligations anyway. For obvious reasons, this severely damaged Fatah’s credibility.
Also, Fatah is either hilariously or sickeningly corrupt, depending on whether you feel like laughing or crying on the given day. Hamas used that to worm their way in too, though now they’re no less corrupt.
Not sure that setting up an enemy for the explicit purpose of using them to harm civilians, and then harming civilians in the process of taking them down, is really freeing anybody. As far as Israel’s actions more than a week or two past October 7 go, I’m disinclined to give them any sort of ‘credit’ for anything except the slaughter they’re overseeing.
What does killing 40 thousand people, mostly innocent, do for your sympathies? Raping and torturing people in detention. For that matter, detention without charge? Turning off water to 2 million people? Preventing food and medical aid?
No, sorry - the IDF claimed that a bad thing was done by Hamas… more genocide is clearly called for. You’re allowed to think whatever you like online, as you’ve asserted.
I just woke up this morning to the news that six hostages had been found dead in a tunnel in Gaza, cause of death multiple gunshot wounds at close range.
I struggle to find sympathy for Palestine after reading a story like that.
Hamas deserve no sympathy - but most Palestinians are just people, like the Israelis, living under a regime that heavily peddles dehumanizing propaganda. If we had no sympathy for the Israelis because of the Palestinians intentionally killed by their hands, we’d be going down the same route that’s currently locking the two sides into a fucking pointless race towards genocide, that Israel seems likely to ‘win’.
It’s a bit more complicated than ‘if you’re not hamas you’re automatically innocent’
Majority of Gaza has supported Hamas for decades and will likely continue to do so.
In the same vein, the majority of Israelis have supported the occupation and genocide of Palestine, and will continue to do so.
It’s not about being ‘innocent’. That’s how these blood feuds perpetuate themselves. We have to accept that, going forward, mere tribalist support for one atrocity or another is not enough to continue pursuing this pointless blood feud. We couldn’t in-good-conscience hang every Nazi after WW2, and Nazi civilians were far more deserving of the noose than the civilian populations of Gaza or Israel.
We cannot justify the murder of Israeli or Gazan civilians under the guise that they hold hate in their hearts or support a shitty side in this shitty conflict. We must narrow those who deserve retribution to the actual criminals, not the propagandized and struggling masses.
I think what the ICC is doing is good—calling for the arrest of both leaders. Neither are budging though.
All of Palestine? You gotta refine that opinion dude, it’s ~5 million people.
I’m kinda over being told what to think online, thanks.
It’s cool, I’m not your dad. I’m more speaking to the message than you, cause you’re just a name. I’m speaking to a bigoted, myopic message on a platform that I use. You can come or go.
I’m also over hearing people make excuses for mass murderers. Hamas are the government of Gaza, after all, this logic isn’t applied to other governments vs their own people.
That’s not what you said. Don’t squirm now.
I’m not the one getting self righteous about a country whose government has vowed to exterminate the Jewish state.
Surely you’re aware of what “from the river to the sea” would entail?
It would entail people of more than one religion living together and sharing a nation as equals. The horror!
“From the river to the sea” is an antisemitic genocidal slogan. Please edit your comment to acknowledge this.
I think we both know that’s not what they mean.
Yeah, calling out someone for a 5 million person wide brush is not self righteous.
Most people here don’t call on Ukraine to indiscriminately kill Russians. It’s the same logic.
Then shut the fuck up.
No, seriously. If you’re not down to have your opinions challenged in this, the gentlest possible way, keep them to yourself.
No, I don’t think I will. I don’t think I’m the only one here who needs their views questioned. How can you possibly justify executing hostages in cold blood?
You are literally telling people not to question your views, because you’ll just ignore them.
You don’t know what conversation you want to have.
And you’re going to pretend you’re any better?
Besides, as I’ve said previously, I don’t support either side in this conflict. Everyone is awful.
‘I’m not here to be told what to think, I’m here to tell others what to think!’
‘If so, fuck off.’
‘Et tu?’
Incorrect.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re on about, but I hope you feel better for saying it.
Should foreigners lose sympathy for your people as a whole, if a group whose members hailed from it do something horrible? Its not like everyday people in Palestine have much choice about what goes on there.
What, like storm the capital?
Ironically enough, the group that seems to be doing the most to free Palestine from the rule of Hamas is the Israeli government.
And quite frankly, I’m sceptical of the claim Palestine is suffering under a dictatorship going against the will of the people, from what I’ve seen they have a lot of support from the population.
Man, Israel has spent years propping up Hamas.
Because hamas was originally a charity
… when do you think Hamas was a charity?
Hamas has performed charity. But that’s not the same as being a charity - their express purpose from their founding has been the destruction of the state of Israel.
It started off as a charity organisation, which is why Israel funded them. Though it’s more likely Israel funded them since they opposed the PLO
That’s in reference to Islamist predecessors of Hamas, not the org itself. I’m speaking of Hamas after its founding, which Israel has spent decades funding
Because Hamas is the only avenue for aid to be received in Gaza.
You can argue UNRWA, but Hamas has ties to them as well.
Not just propping up, getting them into power in the first place. Israel manipulated the elections in Gaza to ensure that Hamas came to power so that they’d be able to frame their fight as being against extremists instead of the more reasonable who had been opposing Hamas (the name escapes me at the moment).
Fatah. Fatah agreed to a two-state solution and peaceful negotiation, and the Israeli prime minister got assassinated by far-right Zionist loons for his trouble. Ever since, every attempt by Fatah at good-faith negotiation has ended up as demands from Israel for a demonstration of fealty, followed by Israel not following through on its obligations anyway. For obvious reasons, this severely damaged Fatah’s credibility.
Also, Fatah is either hilariously or sickeningly corrupt, depending on whether you feel like laughing or crying on the given day. Hamas used that to worm their way in too, though now they’re no less corrupt.
Until recently, yes.
Not sure that setting up an enemy for the explicit purpose of using them to harm civilians, and then harming civilians in the process of taking them down, is really freeing anybody. As far as Israel’s actions more than a week or two past October 7 go, I’m disinclined to give them any sort of ‘credit’ for anything except the slaughter they’re overseeing.
What does killing 40 thousand people, mostly innocent, do for your sympathies? Raping and torturing people in detention. For that matter, detention without charge? Turning off water to 2 million people? Preventing food and medical aid? No, sorry - the IDF claimed that a bad thing was done by Hamas… more genocide is clearly called for. You’re allowed to think whatever you like online, as you’ve asserted.
I’m not, in any way, defending Israel here. They’re also terrible.
in which case, my apologies for jumping to conclusions
Palestine didn’t kill those hostages, Hamas did. Hamas deserves to die, innocents do not, and killing innocents to reach the bad guy is not justified
I respect the sentiment, but Hamas uses innocent civilians as human shields all the time. Doing what you say would allow them to attack with impunity.
If you can’t defend yourself without doing war crimes, you’re not defending yourself. You’re just using it as an excuse for war crimes.
I suggest you read the definitions of what is and isn’t a war crime.
Bombing hospitals, schools, residential buildings, refugee camps, and aid workers are war crimes. Isreal has done all of the above and more.
so has Hamas. Every single thing that Israel has done, so too has Hamas.
The only difference is one can be held accountable, while the other isn’t.
Whataboutism
I too find it hard to sympathize with little Hind or the poet Refaat when they murder hostages.
Yeah, I know, not all Palestinians support Hamas, yada yada, but that’s not how emotions work, is it?
There are no good guys here, just two awful groups of people, and a bunch of civilians caught in the middle.
Based