This is bullshit. Anyone who knows anything about linguistics can tell you that languages aren’t objectively easier or more difficult to learn. What makes a language easy is its similarity to a learner’s native language, or other languages they’ve already learned. Furthermore, there’s a myth that certain things or ideas can be said or expressed in some languages but not in others, and this too is objectively untrue. All languages do the same thing, they just do it differently. If one language doesn’t have a word for something, that doesn’t mean it can’t express the concept, just that it has to do so through other means, typically in a sentence or phrase.
It’s also ‘easy’ to communicate in English. ‘I want eat’ ‘where go this place’ and so on. People understand, and probably will answer you. It’s easier for something like that in Chinese to be grammatically correct - but did you master pitch accents and never mixed them up after ‘a few weeks’? We’re you able to read hanzi?
The thing is that with European languages, it’s easy to fall into the trap of trying to express ideas that are too complex for your language ability if you are native in an European language. I don’t remember French for shit anymore, but say I were to ask some French guy that doesn’t speak English for a good restaurant to eat in, I’d probably go something like ‘je veux mange, tu sais un bon Restaurant ici?’ I doubt that’s grammatically correct whatsoever, and sounds weird as fuck, but you’d probably get my point. It’s probable you sound similar when speaking Chinese only for a few weeks.
The thing about ‘not being able to be expressed in another language’ is that one language might have a shortcut word for something another doesn’t. That shortcut word might also be culturally charged, not that easily explained. Yes, you can explain anything in any language - for some languages you can just take shortcuts
Yes, you can explain anything in any language - for some languages you can just take shortcuts
Along these lines, some languages have a preference for longer or shorter words. There’s an oft repeated factoid that the Inuit language has something like 50 words for snow. That’s not entirely untrue, but it ignores that the language tends to have unique words that encompass more concepts. So whereas English would combine other words in a phrase to produce concepts like “soft deep snow”, the Inuit language has an entire word. It’s not like Inuit has special descriptive powers. It just takes up vocabulary space for concepts that could be mix-and-match instead.
I agree with your second point. But it would seem that normaly the languages that are spoken primarily by people that learnned them as second languages would become more simplified.
For example english speakers say ate instead of eated wich would be the logical choice. If enough peaole learn it as a second language so that it becomes eated then the language becomes simpler.
And then tend to become complicated again as the speakers develop ideosincracies. But if there is a mechanism preventing this, for example its spoken over a wide area so the ideosyncracies never stick. Or the speakers are constantly interacting with forengers or both. Then the languaged gramar would remainsimple.
Persian gramar is much easier to learn than russian or spanish. And i asume chinise is likewise easier.
English verbiage can also a source of frustration for English learners.
For instance, you can chop a tree down. Once you’re done, you can chop a tree up.
Imagine the confusion this causes lol.
I do agree though that the general lack of gender for most uses are really useful. It makes learning other languages more difficult though (basically all other languages).
The only issue with “you” is that it lacks a plural version so we have to use the Southern “y’all” instead. Some people go even further with a mass plural “all y’all”.
This also happens in English, by selection of the words you use. Using Du und Sie is fairly simple in comparison. Strangers, last name basis, or professional? Sie. Kids, friends, talking to people out drinking on a friendly basis? Du.
The whole ‘position of peer’ thing has a lot more nuances in Japanese, and even that’s not too hard once you get the hang of it.
Ah, we disagree my friend. I think languages can be easier or harder based on other criteria too, and not only familiarity.
Suppose an alien, the kind from outer space, crashes on earth and now needs to learn a language to communicate with humans.
It’s not a stretch to consider that all human languages are so far removed from his own as to be considered equally hard to learn if looking only at familiarity. In this scenario, surely there are features of individual languages that make them harder to learn - stuff like gendered articles as mentioned before, as there’s no logic to them and have to memorized.
It’s just not comparable to having to memorize arbitrary gender for every noun in the language
Yes, instead of having to memorize one of up to three possible genders for every noun, you only have to memorize an infinity of arbitrary pronunciations for every word. Much easier.
Those pronunciations are not arbitrary. Consistent spelling was not always important to English writers, so some of that may be arbitrary. The words though have diverse etymologies reflecting multiculturalism born from brutal imperialism spanning centuries. It is often a system of language evolved from violent colonial expansion. Every weird word and spelling that breaks the rule has a story. It may not be a perfectly ordered system because it lives and breathes while some parts grow and others whither and die, but nothing about it arbitrary. Maybe I’ve been listening to too much of The Allusionist podcast.
Yes, but we’re not talking about the linguistic history of how words developed.
We’re talking about learning a language and the lack of consistent rules can make that quite difficult.
You brought up history, not me, by ignoring it through your claim about arbitrary pronunciations. Such a claim ignores history to make a weak argument for language learning difficulty. Pronunciations are not arbitrary.
I’m saying that there are no consistent rules so language learners have to learn each word individually.
If you learn languages by memorizing every singe vowel shift since proto-indo-european then be my guest but for someone who just wants to speak the language and has to learn the difference between plough, through, though etc, it seems pretty damn arbitrary.
So the spelling is irregular, so what. You’ll be bad at spelling for a while.
People mostly learn languages by reading.
having to memorize arbitrary gender for every noun in the language, learn complex verb conjugations, polite and impolite forms and make every verb and adjective agree with the nouns in gender and number
If you mess those up, people will still understand you. Saying “un chaise” instead of “une chaise” doesn’t change the meaning and everyone knows what you’re saying.
However, if you learn english words through text and then try to use them vocally, nobody will understand you. (looking at you “beard”, who isn’t pronounced at all like “bear” for some reason)
There is absolutely no correlation between spoken and written english, so in practice it’s the same as having to learn two languages at once. Even adult native speakers still aren’t sure how to pronounce simple 1 syllable words such as “route” or “vase”, that’s pretty telling how confusing that language is.
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This is bullshit. Anyone who knows anything about linguistics can tell you that languages aren’t objectively easier or more difficult to learn. What makes a language easy is its similarity to a learner’s native language, or other languages they’ve already learned. Furthermore, there’s a myth that certain things or ideas can be said or expressed in some languages but not in others, and this too is objectively untrue. All languages do the same thing, they just do it differently. If one language doesn’t have a word for something, that doesn’t mean it can’t express the concept, just that it has to do so through other means, typically in a sentence or phrase.
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Were you though, or did you just think you were?
It’s also ‘easy’ to communicate in English. ‘I want eat’ ‘where go this place’ and so on. People understand, and probably will answer you. It’s easier for something like that in Chinese to be grammatically correct - but did you master pitch accents and never mixed them up after ‘a few weeks’? We’re you able to read hanzi?
The thing is that with European languages, it’s easy to fall into the trap of trying to express ideas that are too complex for your language ability if you are native in an European language. I don’t remember French for shit anymore, but say I were to ask some French guy that doesn’t speak English for a good restaurant to eat in, I’d probably go something like ‘je veux mange, tu sais un bon Restaurant ici?’ I doubt that’s grammatically correct whatsoever, and sounds weird as fuck, but you’d probably get my point. It’s probable you sound similar when speaking Chinese only for a few weeks.
The thing about ‘not being able to be expressed in another language’ is that one language might have a shortcut word for something another doesn’t. That shortcut word might also be culturally charged, not that easily explained. Yes, you can explain anything in any language - for some languages you can just take shortcuts
Along these lines, some languages have a preference for longer or shorter words. There’s an oft repeated factoid that the Inuit language has something like 50 words for snow. That’s not entirely untrue, but it ignores that the language tends to have unique words that encompass more concepts. So whereas English would combine other words in a phrase to produce concepts like “soft deep snow”, the Inuit language has an entire word. It’s not like Inuit has special descriptive powers. It just takes up vocabulary space for concepts that could be mix-and-match instead.
Agreed. That said, what you’re ultimately talking about is culture, of which language is only one among many aspects that impart meaning.
I agree with your second point. But it would seem that normaly the languages that are spoken primarily by people that learnned them as second languages would become more simplified.
For example english speakers say ate instead of eated wich would be the logical choice. If enough peaole learn it as a second language so that it becomes eated then the language becomes simpler.
And then tend to become complicated again as the speakers develop ideosincracies. But if there is a mechanism preventing this, for example its spoken over a wide area so the ideosyncracies never stick. Or the speakers are constantly interacting with forengers or both. Then the languaged gramar would remainsimple.
Persian gramar is much easier to learn than russian or spanish. And i asume chinise is likewise easier.
Haha, that’s exactly what I just posted. 100% agree
I also feel like there often is a temptation for people to believe that one’s native language is hard.
English verbiage can also a source of frustration for English learners.
For instance, you can chop a tree down. Once you’re done, you can chop a tree up.
Imagine the confusion this causes lol.
I do agree though that the general lack of gender for most uses are really useful. It makes learning other languages more difficult though (basically all other languages).
It’s just you.
In Germany we need to think about the position of the peer and if professional or casual.
Yeah, the word “you” is a good example as well.
The only issue with “you” is that it lacks a plural version so we have to use the Southern “y’all” instead. Some people go even further with a mass plural “all y’all”.
the all y’all sounds fun
Yinz is my preferred term, if we’re going for regional words.
“All of you.” More unwieldy, but doesn’t sound rustic.
You’uns
Virtually all known languages do this, only some do it through the use of grammar.
This thread is full of bad linguistics.
This also happens in English, by selection of the words you use. Using Du und Sie is fairly simple in comparison. Strangers, last name basis, or professional? Sie. Kids, friends, talking to people out drinking on a friendly basis? Du.
The whole ‘position of peer’ thing has a lot more nuances in Japanese, and even that’s not too hard once you get the hang of it.
This is an absolutely minor thing, and it is also a phenomenon which occurs in basically all other languages.
Minor, yes, but there are quite a few of them.
Break a leg
It’s raining cats and dogs
Bite the bullet
Piece of cake
Hold your horses
Spill the beans
Hit the nail on the head
Let the cat out of the bag
It costs an arm and a leg
Can’t have your cake and eat it too
These are just idioms, all languages have their own.
Learning English has it’s snags, but it’s not a hard language. That’s a good thing btw.
There are no objectively “hard” or “easy” languages. What makes certain languages “hard” is their difference from one’s native language.
Ah, we disagree my friend. I think languages can be easier or harder based on other criteria too, and not only familiarity.
Suppose an alien, the kind from outer space, crashes on earth and now needs to learn a language to communicate with humans.
It’s not a stretch to consider that all human languages are so far removed from his own as to be considered equally hard to learn if looking only at familiarity. In this scenario, surely there are features of individual languages that make them harder to learn - stuff like gendered articles as mentioned before, as there’s no logic to them and have to memorized.
I understand your point and opinion, but I think that, for us humans, it has more to do with similarity to our native language.
Idioms. Present in all languages.
Example from Japanese, transliterated:
Rain falls, the ground hardens.
So, is the meaning instantly obvious to you?
Yes, instead of having to memorize one of up to three possible genders for every noun, you only have to memorize an infinity of arbitrary pronunciations for every word.
Much easier.
Those pronunciations are not arbitrary. Consistent spelling was not always important to English writers, so some of that may be arbitrary. The words though have diverse etymologies reflecting multiculturalism born from brutal imperialism spanning centuries. It is often a system of language evolved from violent colonial expansion. Every weird word and spelling that breaks the rule has a story. It may not be a perfectly ordered system because it lives and breathes while some parts grow and others whither and die, but nothing about it arbitrary. Maybe I’ve been listening to too much of The Allusionist podcast.
Yes, but we’re not talking about the linguistic history of how words developed.
We’re talking about learning a language and the lack of consistent rules can make that quite difficult.
You brought up history, not me, by ignoring it through your claim about arbitrary pronunciations. Such a claim ignores history to make a weak argument for language learning difficulty. Pronunciations are not arbitrary.
I’m saying that there are no consistent rules so language learners have to learn each word individually.
If you learn languages by memorizing every singe vowel shift since proto-indo-european then be my guest but for someone who just wants to speak the language and has to learn the difference between plough, through, though etc, it seems pretty damn arbitrary.
You have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of the word arbitrary.
People mostly learn languages by reading.
If you mess those up, people will still understand you. Saying “un chaise” instead of “une chaise” doesn’t change the meaning and everyone knows what you’re saying.
However, if you learn english words through text and then try to use them vocally, nobody will understand you. (looking at you “beard”, who isn’t pronounced at all like “bear” for some reason)
There is absolutely no correlation between spoken and written english, so in practice it’s the same as having to learn two languages at once. Even adult native speakers still aren’t sure how to pronounce simple 1 syllable words such as “route” or “vase”, that’s pretty telling how confusing that language is.
Yeah, babies can learn whatever language easily enough. Except Danish, lol: https://theconversation.com/danish-children-struggle-to-learn-their-vowel-filled-language-and-this-changes-how-adult-danes-interact-161143
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