there’s a lot youre leaving out. I don’t think it’s on purpose, but one of the only ways that the korean war can be made to look like a soviet invasion is by conveniently leaving out everything that happened before the norths army crossed the 38th parallel.
korea was one nation and people before it was divided roughly along a line of latitude by two american officers with no input from those knowledgeable about korea or its history. one of those officers, dean rusk, has said that he would have done things differently if he knew that forty years before, the tsarist russians and japanese had discussed dividing korea along a very similar line.
They divided the peninsula because the idea among the allies was to reunify it five years or so after china’s civil war ended and it was clear weather koreas only land border would be with the communists or the koumintang.
as the japanese retreated south, the korean people formed their own governing committees. the soviet forces integrated those committees into the provisional government, the american side integrated the collaborators from the japanese occupation into theirs. the north had a democratic election, the south became a military dictatorship.
both sides claim to have held elections, but while a majority of the north wanted to vote for kim il sung, the fighter who was an ally of the liberators that empowered koreans to kick out collaborators and do land reform, the souths election that would put syngman rhee in power were boycotted by the souths political parties and accompanied by what was reported on in even western papers as brutal repression. it’s worth noting that one of the leaders of a prominent political party would be assassinated a little later.
there’s plenty i’m glossing over, but the north didn’t cross the 38th parallel out of the blue for no reason but to impose their evil communist brainwashing on the kindly people of the south. in the south, the repression of jeju island, the military uprising against the government in response to that repression and the bodo league massacre are the backdrop for the norths invasion.
now think about those circumstances and history for a second.
the americans divide your country along the same line the russians and occupiers wanted to use before. lets say youre in the north: maybe you don’t trust these soviets, but they respect the peoples committees and theyre doing that land reform youve been wanting for decades. they’re supportive of you expelling the japanese collaborators and things feel like they’re getting better. how about if youre in the south? the americans put the collaborators back in charge, broke up the peoples committees and are putting the ever growing number of collaborators to work beating everyone into shape for the election.
when 30,000 koreans die on jeju island, there’s a failed military uprising and a massacre of south korean communists, what would any right minded person do? of course the north crossed the made up line keeping them away from their countrymen in peril!
since i’ve written enough already i’ll just address what you said about the state of the north being so bad: when and why was it so bad? why did it take a carpet bombing campaign and international blockade to make it so bad?
but one of the only ways that the korean war can be made to look like a soviet invasion
I’m not trying to make it look like anything. It WAS a Soviet backed invasion. The war was literally started by the Soviet backed North conducted a full scale invasion of the South.
is by conveniently leaving out everything that happened before the norths army crossed the 38th parallel.
But you’re conveniently leaving out how the North also crossed the 38th parallel. They’ve had border clashes across the 38th parallel ever since it was established… but none of these were invasions or even remotely close. What the north did in the June of 1950, however, was indeed an invasion.
korea was one nation and people before it was divided roughly along a line of latitude by two american officers with no input from those knowledgeable about korea or its history
Do you know why they created a division to begin with? It was because the Soviet Union invaded Korea and they were moving on their way South. Looking at how Eastern Europe turned out, the Americans didn’t want Korea to have the same fate Eastern Europe where the Soviets weren’t exactly liberators, but rather a change in management. The Americans didn’t have enough time to figure out what the best thing to do was because they were racing against the Soviets, and so these two officers choose the 38th parallel because it split the country into equal parts and left Seoul out of Soviet occupation. But the Americans didn’t establish this line by themselves. The Soviets immediately accepted this proposal when the Americans suggested it to them.
They divided the peninsula because the idea among the allies was to reunify it five years or so after china’s civil war ended and it was clear weather koreas only land border would be with the communists or the koumintang.
Do you why this wasn’t the case? Because again, the Soviet backed North invaded the South in attempt to unify the whole peninsula under the Northern regime.
the soviet forces integrated those committees into the provisional government, the american side integrated the collaborators from the japanese occupation into theirs. the north had a democratic election, the south became a military dictatorship.
That’s not quite right. While you are correct that Koreans did form people’s committees, the Soviet forces didn’t exactly integrate them. They did recognize them and worked them with in the beginning, which was a contrast to the Americans, but they pretty quickly coopted them and filled them with Soviet aligned communists. They also quickly snuffed any opposition, free speech, or any speculation of a genuine election.
Just look at what they did to Cho Man Sik. This man did a lot of good and was popular and well respected. He resisted Japanese occupation, he established committees to help Korea gain its independence, he established stability across different provinces in the North, he established the Democratic Party of Korea which was intended to be an authentic party that represented the nationalists and strived to bring democracy to an independent and unified Korea, and the list goes on and on. However, he was Christian, right wing, and a nationalist who supported genuine democracy and opposed communism, foreign influence, and Soviet occupation… many things that the Soviets didn’t like. The Soviets tried on many occasions to turn him into a puppet of theirs, but he wouldn’t budge. He was willing to cooperate with the Soviets but not on their terms. Despite this, they allowed him to remain in power because they knew this guy was the real leader of North Korea. So they got to work quickly taking over and transforming his party into a Soviet puppet, finding a replacement who was a loyal puppet who did everything they wanted (which ended up being Kim Il Sung), then they looked for any excuse to get rid of him.
That opportunity came when Cho vocally opposed trusteeship proposal. Seeing how Cho was principled and couldn’t be persuaded, the communists accused Cho of collaborating with the Japanese, placed him under house arrested, then later imprisoned him, and then most likely executed him in the prison system. By any reasonable standard, this man should’ve been the first leader of North Korea. If there was a genuine election, he would’ve won. Instead, the Soviets appointed Kim Il Sung as the new leader by consolidating all their propped up communist groups under a big party with him at the top. The American backed South was by no means a democracy, but it’s entirely ignorant to pretend that Kim was a genuine democratic leader or could’ve been when he was not.
both sides claim to have held elections, but while a majority of the north wanted to vote for kim il sung, the fighter who was an ally of the liberators that empowered koreans to kick out collaborators and do land reform
This is literally the Soviet propaganda narrative that they crafted for Kim Il Sung, which he took and ran away with.
the souths election that would put syngman rhee in power were boycotted by the souths political parties and accompanied by what was reported on in even western papers as brutal repression. it’s worth noting that one of the leaders of a prominent political party would be assassinated a little later.
I’m not going to defend a Syngman Rhee. He was a brutal dictator as evil, authoritarian, and shitty as Kim Il Sung.
there’s plenty i’m glossing over, but the north didn’t cross the 38th parallel out of the blue for no reason but to impose their evil communist brainwashing on the kindly people of the south. in the south, the repression of jeju island, the military uprising against the government in response to that repression and the bodo league massacre are the backdrop for the norths invasion.
You’re right, there’s a lot you’re glossing over. The North Korean Marxists didn’t give a flying fuck about the people who were massacred in the South. The North’s master plan was to have the peninsula unified “peacefully”, but under their regime, and their way of doing that was to prop up a communist revolution in the South much like the Soviets have done with them. When the revolution starts gaining traction or takes over, the North can simply consolidate the communists in the South and take control of the whole peninsula. When Rhee went on his anti-communist massacres, their hopes of their master plan were crushed and so they switched to plan b… which was to take over the South by force. In 1949, a year before the actual invasion. Kim Il Sung went to the Soviet Union and to China to rally for support. Mao supported the invasion and sent weapons and troops. Stalin was initially hesitant, but he changed his mind when the Marxists won in China so he gave Kim his approval. On June 25th 1950, the Marxist North invaded the South, and the rest is history.
the americans divide your country along the same line the russians and occupiers wanted to use before.
It’s disingenuous and historically inaccurate to try to blame the US for dividing Korea. There were 3 other countries (UK, Japan, and Soviet Union) that had the same proposals drawn around the same area for the same reasons, and nothing happened until the Soviets agreed to establish the division with the Americans.
but they respect the peoples committees and theyre doing that land reform youve been wanting for decades.
That’s the thing, the Soviets didn’t end up respecting the people’s committees and the people didn’t want land reforms either. This is the Marxist propaganda narrative that tried to make their occupation seem less terrible than it was.
the americans put the collaborators back in charge, broke up the peoples committees and are putting the ever growing number of collaborators to work beating everyone into shape for the election.
You’ve said it more than once now, so I just want to clarify. The narrative that the US put pro-Japanese Koreans in charge is literally false. The US military directly controlled the South for awhile until they handed the keys down to Rhee. Despite Rhee’s many faults, he and his government, were the furthest thing imaginable from being pro-Japanese. That’s not an exaggeration, Rhee was probably one of the most anti-Japanese politicians in all of Korea at the time. Don’t believe me? Here’s an example of what I mean:
of course the north crossed the made up line keeping them away from their countrymen in peril!
This bullshit narrative was already addressed above. But it’s funny you keep trying to make it seem like North Korea courageously invaded the South, with heavy amounts of manpower and weaponry that ended up killing nearly 1 million South Korean civilians, to help the poor South Korean civilians from their dictator. You have to be on crazy pills.
since i’ve written enough already i’ll just address what you said about the state of the north being so bad: when and why was it so bad? why did it take a carpet bombing campaign and international blockade to make it so bad?
If you’re genuinely this ignorant, I could help you and give you a brief list:
Started a war by invading the South that ended up killing up to 2-3 million civilians
Their failed Marxist policies directly led to the famine in the 90s that killed up to 3.5 million people
The country is run by a megalomaniac dictator dynasty
Political opposition is banned
Information is heavily censored and vetted by the state
The country is like a giant prison where it’s cutoff from the rest of the world where people cannot come in or get out
They’re documented for using slave labor and having brutal prison camps where torture is widespread
They punish innocents for crimes (three generations of punishment)
Do you want more? Because there’s plenty more. North Korea being bad isn’t exactly controversial.
the Americans didn’t want Korea to have the same fate Eastern Europe where the Soviets weren’t exactly liberators, but rather a change in management.
I’m going to respond to your whole post in a measured, well documented and civil way, but you need to tighten the fuck up with this shit.
The antisemitic double genocide equivocation of the literal actual Nazis and the soviets who fought against them is unacceptable everywhere unless you are a Nazi.
The idea that Fascism and Marxism were opposites was popularized by Soviet propaganda. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were allies for awhile, and they even invaded Poland together to start WWII. The Soviet Union didn’t become one of the allies until Hitler betrayed Stalin and invaded them. During the war, the Soviet Union suffered a lot and the scars that were left behind has left the population bitter and resentful. The Soviet government exploited the fear and hatred the people had towards the Germans to their advantage. They started using Fascism as an excuse to abuse power. They claimed anything they didn’t like as fascist to ban it and they accused anybody they didn’t like as fascist to arrest them or take them out. At the same time, they started spreading propaganda narratives about how the good and noble communism saved the world from evil and vile fascism.
The reason why I said all this was to point out that the Soviet Union was not better than Nazi Germany. Marxism was not the opposite of Fascism. Fascism and Marxism ARE cousin ideologies and they share A LOT of similarities. They have more in common than differences, especially when it comes to committing atrocities, being tyrannical, and being pure evil. The Soviet Union committed genocides, invasions, engineered famines, forced deportations, ethnic cleansing, oppression, brutal labor camps, destruction of cultural heritage, toppling foreign governments, and the list goes on and on. Here’s a very, very short list of atrocities that the Soviets committed:
The Soviet famine of 1930-1933: 1.5 million deaths
The Kazakh famine of 1930–33: 1.5 million to 2.3 million deaths
Holodomor: 3.5 million to 7 million deaths
The Red Terror: 100k to 1.2 million deaths
Soviet deportations: 800k to 1.5 million deaths
NKVD prisoner massacres: 100k
Great Purge: 680k to 1.2 million
De-Cossackization: 10k to 700k
The Nazis killed 17 million people between 1933 and 1945, that’s 12 years. Most academic estimates put the Soviet Union’s death toll between 20 million on the very low end and 150 million on the very high end, with most estimates agreeing that 60 million is probably the most accurate figure. The Soviet Union killed this many people 74 years. If we calculate the deaths per year, Nazi Germany would come out to around 1.4 million deaths/year while the Soviet union is around 810k deaths/year. There’s a caveat here though because most of the Soviet Unions atrocities happened between 1918 and 1950, which was around the same time the Nazis were active. So when the Nazis were around, the Soviet union was more than likely murdering a similar amounts of people a year as the Nazis.
The Soviet Union was evil, so tyrannical, and so murderous that it’s legacy still haunts its victims today. Just go and ask the Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians, Kazakhs, Estonians, Belarussians, Latvians, or the dozen other ex-Warsaw pact and ex-Soviet states how they feel about the Soviet Union. There’s a reason why a huge chunk of them ended up banning communist symbols just like they banned Nazi symbols. In their eyes, they’re the same type of evil and they’re absolutely correct. Not convinced? How about you go ask Moldovans, Uzbeks, Armenians, Georgians, Azeris, Tajkis, or the Kyrgyz how they feel about the Soviet Union fucked up their borders with the intention to keep them in conflict with their neighbors. Or better yet, why don’t you go ask the surviving Chechens, Ingushi, Karachai, Balkars, Kalmyks, Meskhetian Turks, and Crimean Tatars and ask them what happened to their people?
But it goes deeper than that because the Soviet Union was a very antisemtic regime in it’s own right. The Marxists when they came to power they seized Jewish synagogues, they forced rabbis to resign under the threat of persecution, and they dissolved Jewish communities. Stalin specifically was especially bad. Before WWII tried to please and appease Hitler by promising to work together with him to get rid of Jewish global domination and he even purged his ranks of Jews. He did this to sign alliance with Hitler… which he ended up doing. After WWII, things didn’t get better, he still ended up persecuting and executing Jewish intellectuals, activists, politicians, and community leaders, many under trumped up charged. He also launched a campaign to liquidate Jewish culture where closed Jewish theaters, newspapers, museums, and libraries. He also started the Doctor’s plot, which was an antisemitic conspiracy theory that accused Jewish medical professional of conspiring to kill government leaders and party officials.
The Soviets were in fact just as bad, if not worse than the Nazis. If after all of this, you still deny their atrocities then you’re an idiot or evil. In that case then just get out of my feed. No seriously, don’t fucking respond to me if you’re going to swoop to a level this low. Atrocity deniers don’t deserve engagement. I hope you will at the very least acknowledge the evils of the Soviet Union.
I was feeling pretty bad for hitting back so aggressively on your antisemitism. Especially in America, the more insidious ideas like double genocide theory are almost taught in school!
Sometimes a person should be treated like they walked dog shit inside rather than like they’re actively trying to equate the Nazis and the people who fought against them and liberated the concentration camps.
But here you have laid out a perfect example of double genocide theory in excruciating detail!
If you don’t already know, double genocide theory is the idea that the actions of the Soviet Union were as bad or worse than the Nazis and is propped up by rolling the deaths both direct and indirect under the Soviets all together and saying it’s a bigger number so they must have been worse.
Lots of times people pushing this idea will cherry pick sources out of different time periods to make the biggest numbers, use discredited sources like the black book of communism and ignore the huge body of research into the Soviet archives that were opened up after ‘92.
Heres wikipedia and the magazine jewish currents so you can learn more about what it is you’re actually saying.
Please, please don’t push the antisemitic double genocide theory any more. It’s not acceptable here or anywhere else.
Everything that I stated is literal historical facts. The Soviet Union was antisemitic. The Soviet Union was allied with Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union did all the atrocities that I listed and much more. The Soviet Union did end up killing an estimated 60 million people, and oppressing tens of millions more. This isn’t some conspiracy theory and it isn’t obfuscation of history, it’s an acknowledgement of it. Recognizing how evil the Soviet Union was and just how many horrific atrocities they committed doesn’t take away from the crimes that the Nazis committed. But you already know that. You already know that the Soviet Union committed all these atrocities, you know that Soviet Union was antisemtic, you know that they were just as, if not more evil, than the Nazis… but you just don’t care. You’re so ideologically brainwashed, your mind is so rotten that you literally refuse to accept facts because it contradicts your myopic worldview. You’ve already showed your true colors, and they’re exactly as I suspected. You’re a genocide and atrocity denier and clearly committed to defending the crimes committed by the Soviet Union. You are as vile as they come, truly the scum of the earth. Just as I have stated earlier, you no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt or any further engagement. So please, kindly go fuck yourself and never speak to me again.
I pushed back on your claim that the Soviet Union (the people who defeated nazi germany and liberated concentration camps) was just as bad as the nazis, with sources and civility.
I only replied to that particular part of your post because it’s a well known and documented form of antisemitism that has been used to normalize the various fascist and Nazi groups in Europe as well as outright deny and deemphasize the holocaust.
Please stop spewing hate and vitriol, surely we can talk about this like normal people!
You don’t need to make posts like the last few you’ve typed up!
there’s a lot youre leaving out. I don’t think it’s on purpose, but one of the only ways that the korean war can be made to look like a soviet invasion is by conveniently leaving out everything that happened before the norths army crossed the 38th parallel.
korea was one nation and people before it was divided roughly along a line of latitude by two american officers with no input from those knowledgeable about korea or its history. one of those officers, dean rusk, has said that he would have done things differently if he knew that forty years before, the tsarist russians and japanese had discussed dividing korea along a very similar line.
They divided the peninsula because the idea among the allies was to reunify it five years or so after china’s civil war ended and it was clear weather koreas only land border would be with the communists or the koumintang.
as the japanese retreated south, the korean people formed their own governing committees. the soviet forces integrated those committees into the provisional government, the american side integrated the collaborators from the japanese occupation into theirs. the north had a democratic election, the south became a military dictatorship.
both sides claim to have held elections, but while a majority of the north wanted to vote for kim il sung, the fighter who was an ally of the liberators that empowered koreans to kick out collaborators and do land reform, the souths election that would put syngman rhee in power were boycotted by the souths political parties and accompanied by what was reported on in even western papers as brutal repression. it’s worth noting that one of the leaders of a prominent political party would be assassinated a little later.
there’s plenty i’m glossing over, but the north didn’t cross the 38th parallel out of the blue for no reason but to impose their evil communist brainwashing on the kindly people of the south. in the south, the repression of jeju island, the military uprising against the government in response to that repression and the bodo league massacre are the backdrop for the norths invasion.
now think about those circumstances and history for a second.
the americans divide your country along the same line the russians and occupiers wanted to use before. lets say youre in the north: maybe you don’t trust these soviets, but they respect the peoples committees and theyre doing that land reform youve been wanting for decades. they’re supportive of you expelling the japanese collaborators and things feel like they’re getting better. how about if youre in the south? the americans put the collaborators back in charge, broke up the peoples committees and are putting the ever growing number of collaborators to work beating everyone into shape for the election.
when 30,000 koreans die on jeju island, there’s a failed military uprising and a massacre of south korean communists, what would any right minded person do? of course the north crossed the made up line keeping them away from their countrymen in peril!
since i’ve written enough already i’ll just address what you said about the state of the north being so bad: when and why was it so bad? why did it take a carpet bombing campaign and international blockade to make it so bad?
I’m not trying to make it look like anything. It WAS a Soviet backed invasion. The war was literally started by the Soviet backed North conducted a full scale invasion of the South.
But you’re conveniently leaving out how the North also crossed the 38th parallel. They’ve had border clashes across the 38th parallel ever since it was established… but none of these were invasions or even remotely close. What the north did in the June of 1950, however, was indeed an invasion.
Do you know why they created a division to begin with? It was because the Soviet Union invaded Korea and they were moving on their way South. Looking at how Eastern Europe turned out, the Americans didn’t want Korea to have the same fate Eastern Europe where the Soviets weren’t exactly liberators, but rather a change in management. The Americans didn’t have enough time to figure out what the best thing to do was because they were racing against the Soviets, and so these two officers choose the 38th parallel because it split the country into equal parts and left Seoul out of Soviet occupation. But the Americans didn’t establish this line by themselves. The Soviets immediately accepted this proposal when the Americans suggested it to them.
Do you why this wasn’t the case? Because again, the Soviet backed North invaded the South in attempt to unify the whole peninsula under the Northern regime.
That’s not quite right. While you are correct that Koreans did form people’s committees, the Soviet forces didn’t exactly integrate them. They did recognize them and worked them with in the beginning, which was a contrast to the Americans, but they pretty quickly coopted them and filled them with Soviet aligned communists. They also quickly snuffed any opposition, free speech, or any speculation of a genuine election.
Just look at what they did to Cho Man Sik. This man did a lot of good and was popular and well respected. He resisted Japanese occupation, he established committees to help Korea gain its independence, he established stability across different provinces in the North, he established the Democratic Party of Korea which was intended to be an authentic party that represented the nationalists and strived to bring democracy to an independent and unified Korea, and the list goes on and on. However, he was Christian, right wing, and a nationalist who supported genuine democracy and opposed communism, foreign influence, and Soviet occupation… many things that the Soviets didn’t like. The Soviets tried on many occasions to turn him into a puppet of theirs, but he wouldn’t budge. He was willing to cooperate with the Soviets but not on their terms. Despite this, they allowed him to remain in power because they knew this guy was the real leader of North Korea. So they got to work quickly taking over and transforming his party into a Soviet puppet, finding a replacement who was a loyal puppet who did everything they wanted (which ended up being Kim Il Sung), then they looked for any excuse to get rid of him.
That opportunity came when Cho vocally opposed trusteeship proposal. Seeing how Cho was principled and couldn’t be persuaded, the communists accused Cho of collaborating with the Japanese, placed him under house arrested, then later imprisoned him, and then most likely executed him in the prison system. By any reasonable standard, this man should’ve been the first leader of North Korea. If there was a genuine election, he would’ve won. Instead, the Soviets appointed Kim Il Sung as the new leader by consolidating all their propped up communist groups under a big party with him at the top. The American backed South was by no means a democracy, but it’s entirely ignorant to pretend that Kim was a genuine democratic leader or could’ve been when he was not.
This is literally the Soviet propaganda narrative that they crafted for Kim Il Sung, which he took and ran away with.
I’m not going to defend a Syngman Rhee. He was a brutal dictator as evil, authoritarian, and shitty as Kim Il Sung.
You’re right, there’s a lot you’re glossing over. The North Korean Marxists didn’t give a flying fuck about the people who were massacred in the South. The North’s master plan was to have the peninsula unified “peacefully”, but under their regime, and their way of doing that was to prop up a communist revolution in the South much like the Soviets have done with them. When the revolution starts gaining traction or takes over, the North can simply consolidate the communists in the South and take control of the whole peninsula. When Rhee went on his anti-communist massacres, their hopes of their master plan were crushed and so they switched to plan b… which was to take over the South by force. In 1949, a year before the actual invasion. Kim Il Sung went to the Soviet Union and to China to rally for support. Mao supported the invasion and sent weapons and troops. Stalin was initially hesitant, but he changed his mind when the Marxists won in China so he gave Kim his approval. On June 25th 1950, the Marxist North invaded the South, and the rest is history.
It’s disingenuous and historically inaccurate to try to blame the US for dividing Korea. There were 3 other countries (UK, Japan, and Soviet Union) that had the same proposals drawn around the same area for the same reasons, and nothing happened until the Soviets agreed to establish the division with the Americans.
That’s the thing, the Soviets didn’t end up respecting the people’s committees and the people didn’t want land reforms either. This is the Marxist propaganda narrative that tried to make their occupation seem less terrible than it was.
You’ve said it more than once now, so I just want to clarify. The narrative that the US put pro-Japanese Koreans in charge is literally false. The US military directly controlled the South for awhile until they handed the keys down to Rhee. Despite Rhee’s many faults, he and his government, were the furthest thing imaginable from being pro-Japanese. That’s not an exaggeration, Rhee was probably one of the most anti-Japanese politicians in all of Korea at the time. Don’t believe me? Here’s an example of what I mean:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee_Line
This bullshit narrative was already addressed above. But it’s funny you keep trying to make it seem like North Korea courageously invaded the South, with heavy amounts of manpower and weaponry that ended up killing nearly 1 million South Korean civilians, to help the poor South Korean civilians from their dictator. You have to be on crazy pills.
If you’re genuinely this ignorant, I could help you and give you a brief list:
Do you want more? Because there’s plenty more. North Korea being bad isn’t exactly controversial.
I’m going to respond to your whole post in a measured, well documented and civil way, but you need to tighten the fuck up with this shit.
The antisemitic double genocide equivocation of the literal actual Nazis and the soviets who fought against them is unacceptable everywhere unless you are a Nazi.
You can go fuck yourself with a barbed dildo.
The idea that Fascism and Marxism were opposites was popularized by Soviet propaganda. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were allies for awhile, and they even invaded Poland together to start WWII. The Soviet Union didn’t become one of the allies until Hitler betrayed Stalin and invaded them. During the war, the Soviet Union suffered a lot and the scars that were left behind has left the population bitter and resentful. The Soviet government exploited the fear and hatred the people had towards the Germans to their advantage. They started using Fascism as an excuse to abuse power. They claimed anything they didn’t like as fascist to ban it and they accused anybody they didn’t like as fascist to arrest them or take them out. At the same time, they started spreading propaganda narratives about how the good and noble communism saved the world from evil and vile fascism.
The reason why I said all this was to point out that the Soviet Union was not better than Nazi Germany. Marxism was not the opposite of Fascism. Fascism and Marxism ARE cousin ideologies and they share A LOT of similarities. They have more in common than differences, especially when it comes to committing atrocities, being tyrannical, and being pure evil. The Soviet Union committed genocides, invasions, engineered famines, forced deportations, ethnic cleansing, oppression, brutal labor camps, destruction of cultural heritage, toppling foreign governments, and the list goes on and on. Here’s a very, very short list of atrocities that the Soviets committed:
The Nazis killed 17 million people between 1933 and 1945, that’s 12 years. Most academic estimates put the Soviet Union’s death toll between 20 million on the very low end and 150 million on the very high end, with most estimates agreeing that 60 million is probably the most accurate figure. The Soviet Union killed this many people 74 years. If we calculate the deaths per year, Nazi Germany would come out to around 1.4 million deaths/year while the Soviet union is around 810k deaths/year. There’s a caveat here though because most of the Soviet Unions atrocities happened between 1918 and 1950, which was around the same time the Nazis were active. So when the Nazis were around, the Soviet union was more than likely murdering a similar amounts of people a year as the Nazis.
The Soviet Union was evil, so tyrannical, and so murderous that it’s legacy still haunts its victims today. Just go and ask the Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians, Kazakhs, Estonians, Belarussians, Latvians, or the dozen other ex-Warsaw pact and ex-Soviet states how they feel about the Soviet Union. There’s a reason why a huge chunk of them ended up banning communist symbols just like they banned Nazi symbols. In their eyes, they’re the same type of evil and they’re absolutely correct. Not convinced? How about you go ask Moldovans, Uzbeks, Armenians, Georgians, Azeris, Tajkis, or the Kyrgyz how they feel about the Soviet Union fucked up their borders with the intention to keep them in conflict with their neighbors. Or better yet, why don’t you go ask the surviving Chechens, Ingushi, Karachai, Balkars, Kalmyks, Meskhetian Turks, and Crimean Tatars and ask them what happened to their people?
But it goes deeper than that because the Soviet Union was a very antisemtic regime in it’s own right. The Marxists when they came to power they seized Jewish synagogues, they forced rabbis to resign under the threat of persecution, and they dissolved Jewish communities. Stalin specifically was especially bad. Before WWII tried to please and appease Hitler by promising to work together with him to get rid of Jewish global domination and he even purged his ranks of Jews. He did this to sign alliance with Hitler… which he ended up doing. After WWII, things didn’t get better, he still ended up persecuting and executing Jewish intellectuals, activists, politicians, and community leaders, many under trumped up charged. He also launched a campaign to liquidate Jewish culture where closed Jewish theaters, newspapers, museums, and libraries. He also started the Doctor’s plot, which was an antisemitic conspiracy theory that accused Jewish medical professional of conspiring to kill government leaders and party officials.
The Soviets were in fact just as bad, if not worse than the Nazis. If after all of this, you still deny their atrocities then you’re an idiot or evil. In that case then just get out of my feed. No seriously, don’t fucking respond to me if you’re going to swoop to a level this low. Atrocity deniers don’t deserve engagement. I hope you will at the very least acknowledge the evils of the Soviet Union.
I almost want to thank you for this post.
I was feeling pretty bad for hitting back so aggressively on your antisemitism. Especially in America, the more insidious ideas like double genocide theory are almost taught in school!
Sometimes a person should be treated like they walked dog shit inside rather than like they’re actively trying to equate the Nazis and the people who fought against them and liberated the concentration camps.
But here you have laid out a perfect example of double genocide theory in excruciating detail!
If you don’t already know, double genocide theory is the idea that the actions of the Soviet Union were as bad or worse than the Nazis and is propped up by rolling the deaths both direct and indirect under the Soviets all together and saying it’s a bigger number so they must have been worse.
Lots of times people pushing this idea will cherry pick sources out of different time periods to make the biggest numbers, use discredited sources like the black book of communism and ignore the huge body of research into the Soviet archives that were opened up after ‘92.
Heres wikipedia and the magazine jewish currents so you can learn more about what it is you’re actually saying.
Please, please don’t push the antisemitic double genocide theory any more. It’s not acceptable here or anywhere else.
Everything that I stated is literal historical facts. The Soviet Union was antisemitic. The Soviet Union was allied with Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union did all the atrocities that I listed and much more. The Soviet Union did end up killing an estimated 60 million people, and oppressing tens of millions more. This isn’t some conspiracy theory and it isn’t obfuscation of history, it’s an acknowledgement of it. Recognizing how evil the Soviet Union was and just how many horrific atrocities they committed doesn’t take away from the crimes that the Nazis committed. But you already know that. You already know that the Soviet Union committed all these atrocities, you know that Soviet Union was antisemtic, you know that they were just as, if not more evil, than the Nazis… but you just don’t care. You’re so ideologically brainwashed, your mind is so rotten that you literally refuse to accept facts because it contradicts your myopic worldview. You’ve already showed your true colors, and they’re exactly as I suspected. You’re a genocide and atrocity denier and clearly committed to defending the crimes committed by the Soviet Union. You are as vile as they come, truly the scum of the earth. Just as I have stated earlier, you no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt or any further engagement. So please, kindly go fuck yourself and never speak to me again.
I never denied anything.
I pushed back on your claim that the Soviet Union (the people who defeated nazi germany and liberated concentration camps) was just as bad as the nazis, with sources and civility.
I only replied to that particular part of your post because it’s a well known and documented form of antisemitism that has been used to normalize the various fascist and Nazi groups in Europe as well as outright deny and deemphasize the holocaust.
Please stop spewing hate and vitriol, surely we can talk about this like normal people!
You don’t need to make posts like the last few you’ve typed up!
You’re a waste of time, don’t reply to me again. You’re not worth the engagement.
I recommend you use the block user function. You can find it by clicking on someone’s username and looking for the button marked “block user”.