In my opinion, there are two big things holding Lemmy back right now:
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Lemmy needs DIDs.
No, not dissociative identity disorder, Decentralized Identities.
The problem is that signing up on one instance locks you to that instance. If the instance goes down, so does all of your data, history, settings, etc. Sure, you can create multiple accounts, but then it’s up to you to create secure, unique passwords for each and manage syncing between them. Nobody will do this for more than two instances.
Without this, people will be less willing to sign up for instances that they perceive “might not make it”, and flock for the biggest ones, thus removing the benefits of federation.
This is especially bad for moderators. Currently, external communities that exist locally on defederated instances cannot be moderated by the home-instance accounts. This isn’t a problem of moderation tooling, but it can be (mostly*) solved by having a single identity that can be used on any instance.
*Banning the account could create the same issue.
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Communities need to federate too.
Just as instances can share their posts in one page, communities should be able to federate with other, similar communities. This would help to solve the problem of fragmentation and better unify the instances.
Obviously there are plenty of bugs and QoL features that could dramatically improve the usage of Lemmy, but these two things are critical to unification across decentralized services.
What do you think?
EDIT: There’s been a lot (much more than I expected) of good discussion here, so thank you all for providing your opinions.
It was pointed out that there are github issues #1 and #2 addressing these points already, so I wanted to put that in the main post.
Just as instances can share their posts in one page, communities should be able to federate with other, similar communities. This would help to solve the problem of fragmentation and better unify the instances.
On this point specifically, I think this idea is good. Multiple communities sharing a pool of aggregates that can moderators opt into. Great, I don’t know how feasible that is with ActivityPub, but I hope it can be worked out once the dust has settled.
However, “fragmentation” is neither a problem, nor do I feel exists as things currently stand. If different servers want to host communities around a similar topic, that’s not a bad thing. On Reddit, you had Gaming, Games, Truegaming, etc. They’re all about playing games, video or otherwise, yet if you look at them at all you’ll see they cater to almost completely different audiences. I don’t NOT want ultra dominate monolithic groups. I think if their existed a single “Technology” community then that would be a failure of the fediverse.
Right now is a period of extremes, so don’t evaluate communities too harshly. In the long run, I want to see dozens, maybe hundreds of small communities that maybe don’t get a huge amount of traffic, but are none the less, active and interesting.
Lemmy needs two things to be successful:
- users
- users
and it’s already getting more and more of each of those.
It won’t get more users if it continues to be difficult to use.
I mean …
That’s active users last month. Roughly +50% or +10k in less than a week.
So the data seems to strongly speek against it; lemmy gets more users just fine despite being so difficult.
One question is how many of those will leave again. And obviously, we should strive to make it more user friendly. I fully support your proposals. I just don’t think it’s right to paint them as a necessity for growth, they evidently aren’t.
Twelve of those are mine, due partly to the very shortcomings being discussed here.
The reality is that reddit still exists, and is still more user-friendly (and that’s a low bar). It’s great that lemmy is getting this bump, but it won’t last unless we make it easy to switch for most people. If lemmy was good enough to be a reddit alternative already, it would be. But it’s not, and the only reason people are here is because of the protest.
I think I’m just not that worried about making it easy for “most people” right now. The nature of open source projects means that enthusiastic users can and do contribute to infrastructure, and as more people come along, more people will start working on making things better. There’s a reason reddit decided to fuck over third party API calls, and its because open source projects became better than their own shit, and they apparently think that they’re losing potential money because of it. Projects like Apollo would not be getting cut off if they weren’t seen as a threat to reddit’s business model. If lemmy survives, the breadth and depth of community driven infrastructure will outpace reddit eventually. If it doesn’t, well… then somebody will try something else. No biggie. Cool shit takes time to build.
That makes total sense. I hope to contribute sometime :)
That’s a damned good point!
Yep – it shouldn’t have to take a mass exodus from reddit with a specific push for Lemmy/kbin to get these registrations. Without the support of so many other people doing it, most wouldn’t have had the initiate to figure it out, I suspect. Improving accessibility and user friendliness will be important for sustained growth when reddit protests are finished or shut down by admins.
We’re mostly on the same page. reddit will continue to exist (although time will tell in which state).
I got hung up on the statement “It won’t get more users if it continues to be difficult to use”, because it is evidently false, unnuanced. I still want lemmy to implement these features, as it would help growth (and mostly, the individual users) even further.
It is a somewhat reductive statement, I’ll give you that, but I think the core idea is true. Most people will go to the easiest solution. Lemmy’s userbase may continue to grow for some time, but it will not reach anywhere close to the level of reddit. I think it’s foolish to point to the trends from the last week and try to draw conclusions about the future, as this is clearly an extraordinary circumstance.
I think it’s foolish to point to the trends from the last week and try to draw conclusions about the future, as this is clearly an extraordinary circumstance.
Yes, for sure. Maybe we simply have different standards about truthful statements. I did not mean to imply lemmy could grow like that forever. I just pointed out that it does in a moment when you said it could not, that’s all.
In what way is reddit more user-friendly?
One account gives you access to all the communities?
Years of UI/UX development (arguably, both are bad, but still more developed than anything Lemmy has)?
Easily navigate a user’s post- and comment history?
Space for more specialised communities due to larger user base?
More, and more experienced, mods due to larger user base?
I’m sure we could play this game all day. I guess it depends on whether you see each instance as an individual “Reddit”, or see Lemmy as a fractured “Reddit” with big chasms that need separate accounts to be successfully bridged.
Personally, I see Lemmy as potentially being the latter. Having one Lemmy account (or maybe even one ActivityPub account) would allow me to subscribe to the communities I’m interested in, without having to worry about whether those communities are federated with each other. The instance mods can still de/federated how they feel they need to, in order to make their mod tasks manageable.
If BeeHaw still wants a manual application process for vetting purposes, it shouldn’t matter if I’m asking for permission to create an account, or asking for permission to bring in my already existing account. Instance mods can still gatekeep to the exact level that they want.
people kept saying similar stuff about Mastodon, and yet, miraculously, its user base somehow keeps growing.
- Create account
- interact with community
- ???
- Profit
Terribly difficult
Thank you for that insightful comment. You’ve really addressed my point in its entirety, and thoroughly proven me to be a dullard. I submit to your vast intelligence.
It is a lot easier to attract users if you do not have to make an account on many different instances
Good thing you don’t have to do that then!
You don’t need to make accounts on many instances.
Yup exactly. How do you define successful anyway? It’s say that Lemmy is already successful and it’s likely to continue to grow.
It’s unlikely Lemmy will ever be more successful than Reddit, but it doesn’t need to be.
Personally I don’t know if Lemmy needs these to be successful. Depending on your viewpoint, Lemmy already is successful. Lemmy instances existed long before the current Reddit influx and seemed to be doing okay even if things were a bit slow.
Maybe I’m wrong about this, but it feels to me like most people coming over from Reddit are viewing federation as multiple people helping run parts of a larger single site instead of viewing each Lemmy instance as its own entire community and site with the great benefit of federation allowing direct access and communication to other sites running in the fediverse. Identities and communities are specific to an instance because that instance is an independent community. In that frame of mind, having a different account on different instances and overlapping community topics between instances makes sense. Same way multiple forums have boards about the same topic and joining multiple forums meant multiple accounts. Federation just makes it easier to see across that gap.
Maybe I’m wrong about this, but it feels to me like most people coming over from Reddit are viewing federation as multiple people helping run parts of a larger single site instead of viewing each Lemmy instance as its own entire community and site
I think you are right, and I think a major contributor to this is how Lemmy is communicated. We are inviting people to a concept when they expect to be invited to a place.
“Join Lemmy!” indicates Lemmy is the site. A site. One coherent system. Then “and pick a federated server” just seems like random frustration.
“Join <the instance I am using>! It’s on Lemmy so you can easily contribute to the communities on Beehaw, lemmy.ml, toupoli, … without creating separate accounts there.” is how I think we should go about it.
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The problem is that Lemmy is being mentioned in hackernews reddit and elsewhere as a potential alternative. Not as an alternative with all those caveats in framing but just so.
Communicating what it is even more boldly might be useful (I know it’s been done quite a lot in long self posts but that I’m not sure how much of that goes through)
100% agreed with both. Especially DIDs just need to happen on all ActivityPub platforms. It will not only free users from being locked to an instance, but it will also allow instances to be much more flexible in scaling their capacity. Lemmy.ml is overloaded because they have too many users, and anyone who signed up there can no longer use their account. DID would allow them to immediately use their account from any small or large instance with spare capacity without changing the experience. The same would go for Mastodon.
It sounds like a moderation nightmare having people come over to your instance with a whole lot of content they’ve created that are now being hosted by your servers. You’ve got to look through the whole thing to make sure it is not breaking TOS of your instance. Doesn’t sound great to me.
There’s many different ways DID could be implemented on top of ActivityPub. I don’t think full content replication (what you’re mentioning) is likely as that’s a fundamentally different style of protocol.
But I can imagine signing in to a different instance with my ID, at which point I subscribe to all my communities from this instance and get notifications if someone replies to one of my comments etc. Just as if I had created an account on this instance and had posted from there. It just means “your” instance can go down and you can continue future interactions mostly uninterrupted from another instance.
And it’s more useful in the case of microblogging, where with DID you can publish posts from any instance and your followers will see them. No need for a manual account migration or anything.
Oh I see, that could be better. I still don’t think it’s necessary, but it’s better.
The most straightforward way of resolving #1 (for those so inclined to resolve it) is to host your own instance. Your “identity” becomes the right-side of the @ rather than the left.
I don’t see why the content they’ve created would have to go along with. You could keep the content on the server, but have the posting user be offsite, like posting to another service/community. If the user has moved off your server, just alter the local profile to point to their “new” location.
It would be less overhead than moving the physical posts themselves, especially if things get bigger later on.
Depending on the implementation, I feel that DIDs across ActivityPub could make the aspect of interoperability between different services much more appealing as well. While I think it’s interesting that we can directly interact with posts from entirely different services like Mastodon, Pixelfed, Peertube, and Friendica, I find it difficult to make the feature make sense for daily usage beyond the convenience of not having to open another site/client for a singular interaction. I feel like it makes sense if you only prefer a single service/format for accessing content, but every software implementation handles content differently, with differing formats, features, and limitations. They each specialize at accessing and presenting the fediverse in their own ways, so there’s reason to use each individual application. If you still have to make a separate account for both instances to interact when using either of them, I feel that defeats the purpose of the interconnectivity aspect. By being able to connect the same account to instances between different software, I think this would strengthen it.
Yes, exactly! It’s good for everyone.
I don’t see the big problem in 1. Compare it to e-mail. If you want to switch provider you have to backup and restore your emails if you want to.
Nobody bats an eye that amiladresses contain a maildomain but with Lemmy everyone is used to the reddit way. Give it some time, people will get used to it.
The syncing and federation problems we are experiencing right now will get solved in the future, people will get used to the new naming scheme.
Point 2 is a great idea btw.
Notice how everyone pretty much uses gmail? If gmail goes down you lose access to everything, but it won’t because it’s google and they have money to throw at problems. That’s not true for Lemmy (and we don’t want that because it leads to Reddit 2.0 where all power is centralized).
There is also the additional issue of defederation, not just your instance stability. Like if you happen to be one of the 30k users on lemmy.world, or any of the smaller ones that got cut off from Beehaw because you trusted the “it doesn’t matter where you make your account, it’s all shared in the fediverse!” - if there’s a constant risk Gmail decides to block all Hotmail users one day, creating a Gmail account in the first place seems like the safer bet.
Absolutely! Don’t fool yourself into thinking this will be the only time this happens. Some instance owners will never be willing or able to manage their servers as well as the big players, and that means bad actors can creep into other instance through them!
Email servers getting blocked is definitely a thing that happens otherwise your inbox would be nothing but spam and email providers make sure that their users don’t spam or they would get blacklisted by other providers. Email is inherently federated.
Back in the early 2000s it was still possible to run a mail server locally on a dialup line and have big mail servers accept emails saying “yo the return address for this is myaccount@bigmail.com”, not using bigmail’s outgoing servers, you can absolutely forget about doing that now. Back in those days I would also have 200+ spam mails per day, the situation was so untenable that nowadays you can’t even get an email account without included spam filter unless you set up your own server.
Lemmy and the overall fediverse is not really in that situation yet, where actual commercial spammers make it a target, and the smaller hiccups and maybe a bit trigger happy beehaw admins just mean that when the shit deluge finally arrives, we’ll have the tools to deal with it.
Compare it to e-mail. If you want to switch provider you have to backup and restore your emails if you want to.
When moving to another mail provider, I can forward mails going to the old address to the new one.
When moving to another lemmy account (technically creating an unconnected second one), I have no way to be notified of replies to posts or comments I made with the old account.
There are a couple other use cases where the comparison doesn’t really hold. My hopes are on Moving user profile to a new instance #1985, but it probably won’t be implemented any time soon.
When moving to another mail provider, I can forward mails going to the old address to the new one.
You’re assuming that the reason for the move is not the old mail provider shutting down. If the old provider shuts down and you cannot somehow get their domain name, all mails sent to your old address will just vanish in the void (or even worse, be gobbled up by whoever owns the domain now, better hope there’s no personal info in there that you wouldn’t want in their hands).
But, is there a way to backup and restore? For example, in invididious (Hope devs keep it up with the hard work) you can export all your data to an OPML or json and import it in another instance. For mail it can be done through IMAP.
Email providers aren’t likely to shut down. But from what I know instances may.
@DaughterOfMars @this_is_router
Large email providers aren’t likely to shut down, but smaller ones might… which is the concern for users on instances. Having a way to export / import one’s account to a new instance would be ideal; not sure how a decentralized ID might work but it would be exciting to have.
Taking an opportunity to post a lil off-topic because somecritter’s finally supporting a touch of calm around here: yesss, give it some time, people. Give yourselves some time. Let things (and people) settle some before judging and pushing in every direction at once.
[General comment, not directed at anycritter in particular] It’s getting kinda tiring that so many people are in a big huge rush around here expecting everything to be some form of “just right” right now. People don’t seem to be giving themselves or others time to figure out what’s going on, how things work, how things should work, and there’s a ton of excitement and pushing for things to go this way or that way or whatever but most of them don’t even seem to know what this place is, what federation means, how things work here, or even what instance they’re on or posting to at any given moment. There’s a lot going on that needs time to play out and it’s not all going to be obvious to everycritter immediately.
This place (what should it even be called? This one is looking forward to having a useful name for federated-not-Reddit-thing :'D ) doesn’t need to replace Reddit right now. There is time to work out what it is, what it can be, and what it should be. A bit of patience will enable sensible progress.
I like the idea of aggregating communities. Especially if the modding tools are powerful enough. This could lead to communities being essentially curated lists of other communities. Which is great for new users to discover new communities without being overwhelmed by the unordered list of communities on the instance.
Another feature that I’d like to see is an equivalent to the mastodon’s lists, a way to aggregate communities for yourself. So that you could browse the content of communities sharing a same theme in a dedicated view.
Frankly just being able to create collections of of communities and label them as a user feature would be nice. No need to actually go any higher then the user level. R$ allows this though they seem to have been hiding the feature more and more. People act as if one interacts with a community as a unit. I for example usually do not. I stay on my subscribed feed mostly. If I could create sub feeds like News or Financial, etc. I would use those too.
These are good points. It sucks that as a PhD student in CS, I still don’t understand the workings of federation and other important Internet concepts. I hope someone smarter will work on this stuff, though.
You don’t need an upfront detailed understanding of everything to get started. Contributing to projects like this is a research project like any other.
That’s fair. I think I should invest my time in contributing to third-party apps, though. That’s a barrier to entry for newbies, I think, who want to be able to tap an app on their phone instead of going to a website. I believe Memmy uses Expo, which I might be able to contribute to.
lmao I thought I was dumb for not understanding despite having a BS in CS. Distributed systems are just inherently confusing (and I took distributed systems in college!). Definitely gonna be something that I contribute to on github though, it’s just a matter of time before I learn what I need to learn
Counter strike?
I think these are “nice to have” features rather than absolutely essential, but:
For 1. I could deal with just being able to download my list of subscriptions and upload it to another server. That’s the only bit that’s really slow to copy over by hand.
For 2. I think the main thing that really would benefit is the ability to search all active communities on all servers. The way it is now is alright if there are only half a dozen really active instances whose communities I might be interested in, but it doesn’t scale if there are hundreds of servers to check out. Probably the more important of the two IMHO in the long run.
Yeah, search all federated communities.
It would not be hard to get a list of all communities on each federated instance. Update it a few times a day, even once a day.
But this is the hardest thing for me, searching is a challenge
Being able to download your own data would be a start
1- You mean something along the lines of Hubzilla’s nomadic identities? or how?
Nomadic Identity: The ability to authenticate and easily migrate an identity across independent hubs and web domains. Nomadic identity provides true ownership of an online identity, because the identities of the channels controlled by an account on a hub are not tied to the hub itself. A hub is more like a “host” for channels. With Hubzilla, you don’t have an “account” on a server like you do on typical websites; you own an identity that you can take with you across the grid by using clones. Channels can have clones associated with separate and otherwise unrelated accounts on independent hubs. Communications shared with a channel are synchronized among the channel clones, allowing a channel to send and receive messages and access shared content from multiple hubs. This provides resilience against network and hardware failures, which can be a significant problem for self-hosted or limited-resource web servers. Cloning allows you to completely move a channel from one hub to another, taking your data and connections with you.
2- This is a good Idea. But I’m not sure how posible it is as of now
I’m not familiar with Hubzilla, but it sounds like one possible solution!
I’ve never used Hubzilla or its cousin project friendica. But I know nomadic identity is a unique feature of the former.
For what I’ve read, it allows you to keep your friends and content that are also hosted on hubzilla, but any person from another platform you follow would be lost (you’ll have to re-follow) if you move instances through nomadic identity.
Putting a hypothetical lemmy nomadic identity as an example, If you move from a lemmy intance to another using clones, any community you subscribe to that’s based on lemmy will remain, but any kbin magazine you subscribe to would have to be re-subscribed
Wow me neither, looks promising!
NFTs
Eh?
It’s a joke. You could have your account tied to an NFT. Then transfer it to another instance if you want.
I agree completely! And thanks for clearing up the disassociative identity disorder question, because I actually was wondering for a second. 😆
But if #1 is too hard, the ability to download all of your data from a login and possibly upload it to another account would be a good stopgap.
Good point. That would be a great feature
Yes, I think there are other alternatives to accomplish a similar goal. It may be that lemmy will build in its own syncing of some kind. The method doesn’t really matter much to me.
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Point 1 is part of why I’m gonna start self-hosting a Lemmy instance at some point. If I host my own instance then I can back up my data and ensure it’s never lost.
The Fediverse in general needs federated identities, preferrably self-sovereign. Something like nostr, with validation signatures. E.g., you own your ID, and validate it with some mechanism of your preference. If midwest.social trusts your validator, it creates a space for your ID.
I don’t think this is conceptually or implementationally difficult, but it would require a well written standard and consider both privacy issues (for users) and protections against spammers and bad actors (for hosting providers). I don’t thing PGP’s web-of-trust model would be a bad one. I think using the nostr network (quasi online chain) would be a great idea, and all of the parts are there; it would need a decent UI and support in each Fedi server implementation - which would be the biggest hurdle.
This would address the DID issue, and I agree with you that this is issue #1. Right now, users don’t own their identities: their hosting service does. If midwest.social chose to, they could nuke my account and the canonical source of truth for all my posts. I run my own ActivityPub server and so own the account I use for Mastodon; and, perhaps, someday Fediverse federation will evolve to the point where I can use that account for everything. But it’s an expensive node for me to operate, and not everyone can run their own server. Better, self-sovereign, and truly federated DIDs is incredibly important.
Just to add a little more context, here’s the W3C recommendation for DID:
For the second one there is an issue on github discussing it.
That sounds exciting. Would be a fantastic addition to the fediverse.
And there is another issue related to the first one. Not exactly the same, but being able to truly move to another home instance would do it for me.
