I remember voting for Sanders a couple different times
Biden did quite a bit for the working class, although quite a lot more would be fuckin fantastic. But I do get your point. I feel like maybe you are confusing “get to vote for” with “get to have on a silver platter without needing to play on the tilted table that is US politics and actually get the dude or dudette elected”. I don’t think there has ever been a country where the ruling class will let go of power and give the people a fair shake just because they stand up and say “better candidates pls I don’t like these ones.”
In other words what’s your alternative, just give up and wait for things to get worse until we all starve or go to the camps?
Out of curiosity, how would you respond to people voting third party instead of for Harris?
In the past day you’ve attacked people for trying to push for Harris to have more left-leaning policies. So you don’t actually want people to do the work to get involved in politics, you want people to just vote for whoever the Democrats run.
Out of curiosity, how would you respond to people voting third party instead of for Harris?
I would simply remind them that third-parties will not win electoral votes, and as this election will be razor-close anyway, a third party vote is a vote for trump.
In the past day you’ve attacked people for trying to push for Harris to have more left-leaning policies. So you don’t actually want people to do the work to get involved in politics, you want people to just vote for whoever the Democrats run.
No. Two things: Firstly, undermining support for a campaign can be done by posing as pushing for more progressive policies. We saw this a lot with “gEnOSiDE jOe = i won’t vote for genocide”. Two - involvement in politics is always a positive thing. But with 87 days til the election, it’s kind of the only time demanding changes from outside the party is super unlikely.
If we survive this election and Harris gets in, I’ll be right there demanding progress. For the next 87 days though, it’s more GOTV than Here’s My List of Demands.
This entire response is an exercise in mental gymnastics. Leftists are bad for “not doing politics” but also leftists are bad for doing politics.
If we survive this election and Harris gets in, I’ll be right there demanding progress. For the next 87 days though, it’s more GOTV than Here’s My List of Demands.
If I had a penny for every liberal that said that and then didn’t actually care, I’d be able to pay the student debt Joe Biden thought I didn’t deserve to have forgiven.
This entire response is an exercise in mental gymnastics. Leftists are bad for “not doing politics” but also leftists are bad for doing politics.
“Controlled burns are good for forests, but unattended raging wildfires are bad? Mental gymnastics!”
Shockingly, the same action has different results in different contexts. Knowing when to take which action for the maximum benefit, and minimum damage, to a cause isn’t mental gymnastics, it’s just regular thinking.
If I had a penny for every leftist who understood politics I’d have about $37.50
This entire response is an exercise in mental gymnastics. Leftists are bad for “not doing politics” but also leftists are bad for doing politics.
I don’t know how you mean, but I’m assuming you’re conflating “doing politics” with negative comments about Harris’ perceived lack of woo woo magickal socialistic legislation?
Leftists are bad for limiting the chance to defeat trump - that’s it. That’s my fundamental “leftists are bad for doing” complaint. If leftists want to organize voting, circulate petitions, attend meetings and give opinions, run candidates for local elections or any of the actual boring AF things that actually comprise the core of political effort - I am 100% supportive of them doing that. The chances would be very good that I’d support those efforts or candidates.
But I don’t ever see a lot of evidence that they’ve done that. All I ever see is pointless complaints like “waah liebruls are preventing magickal goodnesses” concentrated around the presidential election cycle - and that’s it. So, yeah, that’s worse than useless, that’s just counterproductive.
It’s not a coincidence that’s what russian influence groups like IRA did in 2016 , 2020, and now. Because creating divisions only helps The Cult. Couldn’t they just go to the trump supporters and do that there? Complain how trump isn’t progressive enough, cause FUD over there and try to bring down their voter base? At least then there’d be a benefit to it.
Most of the ads didn’t specifically mention the election or express support for a particular candidate. But they did appear to “focus on amplifying divisive social and political messages across the ideological spectrum – touching on topics from LGBT matters to race issues to immigration to gun rights,”
You see how “focusing on amplifying divisive social and political messages” in the run up to an election is a russian influence tactic? That’s why I say right now is the wrong time for “doing politics” on an internet forum. Register voters, knock on doors or text people if you need to do so, but posting “Harris isn’t progressive enough on —-“ right now is not okay. There are three years and seven months to do that. And I guarantee everyone whining about ‘the liberals’ won’t say anything (or, more accurately, do anything) in that time. Why is that, I wonder.
Leftists are trying to push her left because they want a more progressive president. It’s a perfectly “valid” political position to think she’s perfect as is and want leftists to stop trying to get her to be more progressive, just own it. You’re pushing back against leftists and then pretending you aren’t, and that’s where you lose any good will or assumptions of good faith. By all means disagree with lefties, just own it.
My problem specifically is that this kind of thing happens any time lefties push for Democrats to be progressive. Exactly 4 years ago I saw leftists being chastised for trying to push Biden left because “he has to win first”, then it was “he just won you have to give him time”, then it was “we can’t worry about distractions like trans rights or antiracism, we need to worry about midterms”, then it was “midterms just ended, we need to give them time to get organized”, then it was “we can’t worry about distractions like trans rights or antiracism or genocide, we need to worry about Trump”, and now it’s looped back to “she has to win first”. In 6 months it’ll be “she just won you have to give her time”, and a year from now we’ll be too busy worrying about midterms.
Do you see the pattern here? There’s never an acceptable time for liberals to care about marginalized people. We’re not even saying Harris is evil or should lose, we’re literally just asking for her to do better. I genuinely hope she wins, nationalizes all the things, fixes racism and transphobia, and we all live happily ever after. I just don’t think we’ll ever get there without pushing our leaders to do better. You know how the right loves to say “love America or get out”? Leftists are taking the third option of “make it better” and you’re pushing back against them for it. You aren’t saying it out loud, but you’re embodying the “love it or leave it” mentality of the right.
I remember voting for Sanders a couple different times
Biden did quite a bit for the working class, although quite a lot more would be fuckin fantastic. But I do get your point. I feel like maybe you are confusing “get to vote for” with “get to have on a silver platter without needing to play on the tilted table that is US politics and actually get the dude or dudette elected”. I don’t think there has ever been a country where the ruling class will let go of power and give the people a fair shake just because they stand up and say “better candidates pls I don’t like these ones.”
In other words what’s your alternative, just give up and wait for things to get worse until we all starve or go to the camps?
I read it as “waaahhhh politics is hard and/or I don’t know how it works”
Run your candidate, get the votes. N’est-ce pas?
Nothing’s preventing that. If it’s the first time out, maybe a Presidential run isn’t the best idea.
Out of curiosity, how would you respond to people voting third party instead of for Harris?
In the past day you’ve attacked people for trying to push for Harris to have more left-leaning policies. So you don’t actually want people to do the work to get involved in politics, you want people to just vote for whoever the Democrats run.
I would simply remind them that third-parties will not win electoral votes, and as this election will be razor-close anyway, a third party vote is a vote for trump.
No. Two things: Firstly, undermining support for a campaign can be done by posing as pushing for more progressive policies. We saw this a lot with “gEnOSiDE jOe = i won’t vote for genocide”. Two - involvement in politics is always a positive thing. But with 87 days til the election, it’s kind of the only time demanding changes from outside the party is super unlikely.
If we survive this election and Harris gets in, I’ll be right there demanding progress. For the next 87 days though, it’s more GOTV than Here’s My List of Demands.
This entire response is an exercise in mental gymnastics. Leftists are bad for “not doing politics” but also leftists are bad for doing politics.
If I had a penny for every liberal that said that and then didn’t actually care, I’d be able to pay the student debt Joe Biden thought I didn’t deserve to have forgiven.
“Controlled burns are good for forests, but unattended raging wildfires are bad? Mental gymnastics!”
Shockingly, the same action has different results in different contexts. Knowing when to take which action for the maximum benefit, and minimum damage, to a cause isn’t mental gymnastics, it’s just regular thinking.
If I had a penny for every leftist who understood politics I’d have about $37.50
I don’t know how you mean, but I’m assuming you’re conflating “doing politics” with negative comments about Harris’ perceived lack of woo woo magickal socialistic legislation?
Leftists are bad for limiting the chance to defeat trump - that’s it. That’s my fundamental “leftists are bad for doing” complaint. If leftists want to organize voting, circulate petitions, attend meetings and give opinions, run candidates for local elections or any of the actual boring AF things that actually comprise the core of political effort - I am 100% supportive of them doing that. The chances would be very good that I’d support those efforts or candidates.
But I don’t ever see a lot of evidence that they’ve done that. All I ever see is pointless complaints like “waah liebruls are preventing magickal goodnesses” concentrated around the presidential election cycle - and that’s it. So, yeah, that’s worse than useless, that’s just counterproductive.
It’s not a coincidence that’s what russian influence groups like IRA did in 2016 , 2020, and now. Because creating divisions only helps The Cult. Couldn’t they just go to the trump supporters and do that there? Complain how trump isn’t progressive enough, cause FUD over there and try to bring down their voter base? At least then there’d be a benefit to it.
Facebook sold political ads to fake accounts linked to Russia
You see how “focusing on amplifying divisive social and political messages” in the run up to an election is a russian influence tactic? That’s why I say right now is the wrong time for “doing politics” on an internet forum. Register voters, knock on doors or text people if you need to do so, but posting “Harris isn’t progressive enough on —-“ right now is not okay. There are three years and seven months to do that. And I guarantee everyone whining about ‘the liberals’ won’t say anything (or, more accurately, do anything) in that time. Why is that, I wonder.
Trans people are literally just asking for basic human dignity, and you’re telling us that isn’t okay.
Sorry - how do you mean? Is Harris promoting some horrible thing?
Yes.
Leftists are trying to push her left because they want a more progressive president. It’s a perfectly “valid” political position to think she’s perfect as is and want leftists to stop trying to get her to be more progressive, just own it. You’re pushing back against leftists and then pretending you aren’t, and that’s where you lose any good will or assumptions of good faith. By all means disagree with lefties, just own it.
My problem specifically is that this kind of thing happens any time lefties push for Democrats to be progressive. Exactly 4 years ago I saw leftists being chastised for trying to push Biden left because “he has to win first”, then it was “he just won you have to give him time”, then it was “we can’t worry about distractions like trans rights or antiracism, we need to worry about midterms”, then it was “midterms just ended, we need to give them time to get organized”, then it was “we can’t worry about distractions like trans rights or antiracism or genocide, we need to worry about Trump”, and now it’s looped back to “she has to win first”. In 6 months it’ll be “she just won you have to give her time”, and a year from now we’ll be too busy worrying about midterms.
Do you see the pattern here? There’s never an acceptable time for liberals to care about marginalized people. We’re not even saying Harris is evil or should lose, we’re literally just asking for her to do better. I genuinely hope she wins, nationalizes all the things, fixes racism and transphobia, and we all live happily ever after. I just don’t think we’ll ever get there without pushing our leaders to do better. You know how the right loves to say “love America or get out”? Leftists are taking the third option of “make it better” and you’re pushing back against them for it. You aren’t saying it out loud, but you’re embodying the “love it or leave it” mentality of the right.
We just want her to be better.