- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
MOSCOW, Aug 16 (Reuters) - Russia’s ambassador to Washington said on Friday that he did not believe Ukraine would have attacked the Nord Stream gas pipelines without the tacit approval of the United States, and that Russia would identify and punish those behind the attack.
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they know because russia did it. /wild guess
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It was a good deed.
If you define “good” as total batshit crazy insanity.
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Wieso sollte ich? Propagandalügen unwidersprochen hinnehmen ändert die Realität nicht. Es bringt nur verwirrte Disinformationsopfer wie dich dazu, noch lauter Märchengeschichten zum Besten zu geben und die Wirklichkeit zu verleugnen.
Und so bejubeln die dann einen idiotischen kriegerischen Akt gegen einen Verbündeten, der nur in der eigenen verdrehten Realität sinn ergibt.
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Genau… immer schön beleidigen, wenn man keine Argumente hat.
Aber hier, ich helf dir sogar:
Deutschland hat die Freigabe von NS2 verhindert (und das übrigens auch vor Russlands Invasion). Aber da niemand die Realität mag wurden wir mit Märchen überhäuft wie Deutschland in Wirklichkeit durch Sanktionen dazu gezwungen wurde (gegen die sie sich in ihrer Russlandliebe natürlich bis zum Schluss gewehrt haben 🤣).
Russland hat NS1 abgedreht, Monate vor der Sabotage. Und bewirkt hat dieser Versuch der Erpressung exakt überhaupt nichts. Nicht einmal die Preise gingen weiter rauf, weil der vorherige Preisanstieg eh schon mehr auf Unsicherheit am Markt als auf wirklichem Mangel basierte. Doch wieder war die Realität nicht gewollt, also gab’s die nächste Welle von “Jeden Moment werfen sich die Gassüchtigen Deutschen Putin an den Hals”-Lügen… unter anderem mit einem halben Dutzend Berichten über die geplante Einstellung aller Hilfen für die Ukraine und Blockade von EU Sanktionen durch Deutschland nur in den ersten 3 Tagen. 100% frei erfunden, aber wen stört das schon. Die meisten wohl nicht, da Fakten einfach zu leugnen viel einfacher ist, als seine fehlerhafte Meinung zu korrigieren.
2 Monate später hatte sich immer noch nichts geändert. Die Gaspreise waren angesichts der guten Speicherprognosen trotz 0 Gas aus Russland sogar im freien Fall.
Es gibt jetzt also genau zwei Möglichkeiten: Man lebt entweder in der Realität oder man hat dank Propaganda-induziertem Wahn den Kontakt zur Wirklichkeit verloren und halluziniert, dass Deutschland gewaltsam davon abgehalten werden muss, (vollkommen imaginäres - denn das Thema war in Wahrheit ja nun schon seit 2 Monaten abgehakt…) Gas von Russland zu kaufen.
In dem Fall, dass man in der Tat dem Wahnsinn verfallen ist und sich vor der Wirklichkeit verabschiedet hat, ergibt es natürlich Sinn einen kriegerischen Akt gegen einen Verbündeten zu begehen. Und auch diese Idioten noch zu bejubeln. Deshalb wird aber weder die bekloppte Tat an sich, noch deine genauso bekloppte Unterstützung sinnvoll.
Wer sich die Fakten anschaut, begreift, dass da unbenutzte Pipelines aus Jux und Dollerei zerstört wurden. Und dass es exakt keinen guten Grund gab (zumal das Risiko, wenn es auffliegt, ebenfalls existiert…), es sei denn, man ist dem eigenen Propagandablödsinn zum Opfer gefallen. Und wer das bejubelt ist schlicht genauso geistig verwirrt.
So und jetzt du. Und versuch’s mal zur Abwechslung mit Argumenten statt “Halt die Klappe” und “Bist du besoffen”.
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Achtung! Seien Sie zivil.
An welcher Stelle war ich das nicht? Ich war nicht derjenige mit “Halt die Klappe” und “Bist du gesoffen?”, sondern habe mich im Gegenteil bemüht, klare Argumente zu liefern und darzustellen, wie die Tatsachen von Narrativen verzerrt wurden. Scheinbar wohl vergeblich (ich kann die erhaltenen Antworten ja nicht mehr lesen…).
Junge was zum Teufel, lösch doch die falsch informationen und anti Ukraine propaganda und nicht die Leute die das entsprechend angreifen. Finde ich ehrlich mega cringe und kontraproduktiv zu “civility”
Im übrigen kann ich allen empfehlen die gelöschten Kommentare im modlog nach zu lesen. Sehr wahr.
Why wouldn’t the average Germans response be something like: well yeah, fair enough. Our tax money was used to finance Russias war of agression and they thought they could manipulate us into not helping Ukraine by threatening our energy supply.
The pipeline was a major source of income for the Russians and without 3 small nudges nothing tangible was going to change in the short run, while Ukranians where dying.
If it is a Ukrainian government sanctioned OP or not, the dependence of Germany on Russian gas needed to stop, so instead of having to watch your politicians slow walk the ordeal, Germany flexed its muscles and fixed the issue fast and efficient.
I’d suggest you think about that too.
The pipeline was a major source of income for the Russians and without 3 small nudges nothing tangible was going to change in the short run, while Ukranians where dying.
Nordstream 2 never went into operation. It was tested and held pressure, but Germany never certified an operator, stopped the procedure to do so two days before the 2022 invasion, and never picked it up again. The pipeline is wholly owned by the Russians.
When the pipeline blew up plenty of gas terminals were already under construction. Russia was playing games with what came through Nordstream 1. They were caught red-handed trying to drain gas reserves before the invasion. There was absolutely no fucking way Germany would in any sense have continued to rely on Russian gas with or without the pipeline blowing up.
Relying on Russia in the face of all the fuck fuck Games the Russians play is exactly what they did and expanded on for over a decade. Also if Germany wasn’t buying, others on the gas network where. So I don’t know if I would agree with your closing statement.
One pipeline was open and gas was flowing, so it was a major source of income for Russia. If only NS1 would stop operation NS2 would have been certified and have taken over in days.
Russia wasn’t sending any gas through NS1 at that point. Or at least thereabouts, remember those shenanigans around compressor turbines which were in repair and whatnot.
If you seriously, seriously think that Germany would risk an economic crash over pivoting away from Russia then I can’t help you either. There might’ve been some unease over “will Germany actually side with Russia over fears about the economy” but that a) makes no economic sense and b) nope we don’t just fuck over allies.
As to Handel durch Wandel: The whole thing cut both ways. The idea was to make war prohibitively costly by enmeshing economies – and, indeed, Russia’s economy is in the gutter. Ideally it would have made them not attack at all but a ruined Russian economy is a proper consolidation price. They e.g. can’t produce ball bearings necessary for their trains, just as a random example of many: They became reliant on German products, a thing that non-enmeshment could never have achieved. The Soviet Union was self-sufficient in those areas, and Russia would still be had Germany not gone in and wiped key strategic Russian companies off the market.
And the other direction? The gas? Figures that that wasn’t a dependency, at all. Maybe, maybe, after shit went down and we were able to see the actual impacts it would be prudent to re-evaluate past narratives, but, well, I can’t force you.
Our tax money was used to finance Russias war of agression
Because that’s not true. That’s the propaganda narrative that is repeated again and again.
- Nordstream 2 was planned and paid by Gazprom (owned by Russia), Uniper (then part of Fortum - owned by Finland), Shell (UK), OMV (Austria), Engie (partly owned by France), Wintershall (Germany).
German tax payers did pay exactly zero (I don’t know enough about finances in Finland or France to know if they (indirectly) paid taxes for it. Those two -and Gazprom -where the only countries involved with the rest being private companies). German tax payers also didn’t care for European companies wanting to inrease their imports from Russia as Germany’s own gas consumption was stagnating for years.
The only actual interest for the project in Germany was pushed by the local government in the state were the pipeline ended… because of additional jobs in construction and operation created.
- Germany financing Russia is also a lie people keep repeating. Actual trade balances are publically available. Germany pulled ~50 billion $ out of Russia over the years, while in the same time the US, UK, Poland and even Ukraine (although they are the ones not to blame here, as their options were limited) actually financed Russia via a massive trade deficit.
PS: Do you want to know who was Ukraine’s biggest financial supporter since 2014? Also a detail that probably won’t match your chosen reality.
and without 3 small nudges nothing tangible was going to change
What should they have changed?
Not opening NS2 in the first place? That is exactly what happenend. Before Russia started their invasion.
Or should they have reduced the deliveries through NS1 from nothing to even less… oh, wait…
Oh, I know. Should they have called Russia’s bluff about technical problems and then start legal procedings so German companies would not go bankrupt from payments for gas that they wouldn’t receive to finally close the Nordstream chapter? Again, that’s exactly what happenend.
And more than a month later an unused (NS1) and unoperational (NS2) pipeline exploded.
Please point out the change those “small nudges” (interesting choice of words for an act of war against a countries infrastructure btw…) brought.
Why wouldn’t the average Germans response be something like
Why do Germans react the way they do? Because we are sick of the lies and how screwing up then pointing fingers at Germany is Europe’s tried and true strategy number 1.
Germany’s dependence on Russian gas was slightly below EU average (no wonder when they were Europe’s 2nd biuggest gas exporter with no production because everyone imported Russian gas via pipelines ending in Germany)… Yet lying and phantasizing about Germany being dependent was easier than to acknowledge their mistake. And to add insult to injury some countries even screamed loudly at Germany for still importing Russian gas while getting exactly that gas for themselves, usually without it ever reaching Germany but only theoretically being bought from Germany on paper (looking at Poland in particular).
As already mentioned above Germany was one of the few European countries with a trade surplus not financing Russia. Yet telling the fairy tale of how they alone paid for Putins war is easier the telling a truth your voters wouldn’t like. Blaming someone else is much better when you want to keep your governing job.
Oh and let’s not forget oil. Let’s talk about the fact that every single country along that pipeline massivel increased their imports from Russia all through 2022 and the first half of 2023… everyone but Germany that is, while everyone screamed about Germany financing Russia via oil imports.
It’s also not limited to Russia in any way: Half of Europe has sold the majority (or all) of their harbors to China. But when Germany reacted by selling a minority share of one single terminal to compete with the massive disadvantage of chinese ships stopping anywhere else then shipping to Germany via land routes there was a massive international outcry why the evil Germans would try to sell out to China. Do you want to guess who worked on correcting that problem at home? Spoiler: Nobody, because the usual “but Germany”-diversion worked.
If you want more diverse reactions from Germans: Get a new scapegoat for once. Until that happens you will only see two reactions: ignoring the daily “Germany bad”-narrative or telling you very clearly what kind of bullshit this is. And judging by the amount of downvotes, insults and accusations of being a Russian troll I get here, the latter group is so small nowadays that people aren’t used anymore to get their propaganda narratives challenged.
Either that or people are really not able to argue anymore, operating mostly on feelings of righteous zeal and attacking everything challenging their dogma. But I’m (for now) still too much of an optimist to believe that version…
But when Germany reacted by selling a minority share of one single terminal
Not even the terminal, but of terminal operations: The Chinese said “if we’re going to be frequent customers we want to have a say in scheduling etc” and that’s perfectly fair. It’s also a common.
Any actual physical infrastructure is completely off limits to foreign investment, and “foreign”, here, from the point of view of Hamburg, means “anyone who is not the city itself”.
Also did you know that Hapag-Lloyd switched alliances and is going to chum up with Maersk, now. The Hanse and the Danes working together, who would’ve thought. At this rate next thing that’s going to happen is buying up the Netherlands, much of Bremen’s harbour is already vassalised.
Whoa… besides the fact “Germans bad” was not part of my message you seem to be mixing and conflating stuff.
Trade balance just means Germany also sold a lot to Russia… stuff like diesel engines, pumping equipment etc etc.
And either be angry at Russia for causing the whole war … with all its consequences or not. But being angry at Ukraine for blowing up a Russian pipeline seems kinda selective.
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Of course it will, sweetheart 🙄
explain
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Ukraine consulting with the USA is plausible, but on the other hand a Russian diplomat is the worse source a newspaper could cite. There are very few people less objective on this topic than Russian diplomats.
“Ok broski, you do that. Good luck 🥱” - US diplomats
I thought the investigation was closed inconclusive more than half a year ago?
I always suspected USA could have part in this, they were pretty pissed that Merkel wouldn’t terminate the program.
And as history has shown rightfully so.
Whether they gave Ukraine a green light or not IDK, but I don’t blame Ukraine if they did this. It’s fair game as I see it, Russia chose the war, not Ukraine.I thought the investigation was closed inconclusive more than half a year ago?
Last I’ve heard is that Germany put out an arrest warrant for an Ukrainian (not saying it was Ukraine) and Poland failed to arrest him for months, then said “whoops he just crossed the border”. They also very much failed to hand over relevant evidence, or at least clues, e.g. surveillance tapes in an harbour.
But that doesn’t even mean that it was Poland – they have motive, but it’s also not really in character, they wouldn’t want to piss of Germany much less when Germany is in the process of getting rid of Russian gas. I still haven’t ruled out Germany, an investigation going on and on doesn’t point in the opposite direction of course they’d let the state attorney investigate to their heart’s content while simultaneously working with the intelligence services of other countries to turn every lead inconclusive and elusive.
Ukraine, as far as I can tell, doesn’t have the capability. US? I don’t think so, either, their submarines are way too loud (because nuclear), people would’ve noticed. They’re just not made for covert operations in the Baltic Sea. Manoeuvring two depth charges into place from a yacht seems to be grasping for straws.
Russians are also suspects. Yes it’s their pipeline, yes it’d have been easier for them to explode the pipes from within, but they might have orchestrated a false flag out of spite.
Chances are we won’t know until the war is over, or even a decade or two later. One thing is for sure: It was done by people who knew what they were doing.
America: Oh no that’s so bad of them. Anyway, here Ukraine, here’s some more stuff.
And I’ll bet Germany knew as well. Remember that clip of Biden saying Nordstream is not going to happen, with Scholz standing RIGHT NEXT TO HIM? Nordstream needed to go, and go it did. We could have just buried that topic and never brought it up again. But then some DA supersleuth had to go sleuthing… 🙄 Hey, at least it proves that Germany’s judiciary is somewhat independent from the executive, after all.
